Shindawa Trimmer C4 Hybrid Technology

[scudpilot]

I just talked to a friend of mine and he was telling me that he just burned up one of the new technology Hybrid motors, which is a 4stroke engine, but uses oil/gas mixture with no crankcase. Manufacturer recommends normal oil at 50:1.
This trimmer is a Shindawa C4 Hybrid. He was using Amsoil Sabre professional at 80:1 like he uses in all his other commercial machines. Never had a problem and loves the Amsoil convenience. He owns a landscaping company.
Has anyone here had any experience with these motors?

 

[Jim 5]

So who is he going to call upon for Warranty work? Doesn't seem fair to go after Shindaiwa in this case.

 

[scudpilot]

Good question. Don't know much about this technology or its reliability.

 

[Jim 5]

Shindaiwa is very well respected in the industry. It has as good or better reputation than Stihl and Echo. My first guess is that perhaps Amsoil hasn't tested or recommended their lean oil ratios in 4 stroke engines that are spec'd for 2 stroke oil.

I doubt if Shindaiwa is making lemons.

 

[Panzerman]

A four stroke engine with no crankcase and uses a premix-Hmmm, why not just use a two stroke without all the valves isnt it going to immit the same exhuast except make more power per size.Basically a 21cc two stroke is going to make as much power or more than a 31cc four stroke and if they both use Pre-mix, I see no sense in this machine except a nifty Hybrid name. This is what happens when when enviromentalist get involved in engine designs.

 

[scudpilot]

Supposedly makes more power with 1/3 less fuel consumption than a 2stroke. And as you said lower emmisions for the tree-huggers.

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
A four stroke engine with no crankcase and uses a premix-Hmmm, why not just use a two stroke without all the valves isnt it going to immit the same exhuast except make more power per size.Basically a 21cc two stroke is going to make as much power or more than a 31cc four stroke and if they both use Pre-mix, I see no sense in this machine except a nifty Hybrid name. This is what happens when when enviromentalist get involved in engine designs.


Four stroke engines produce waaay less hydrocarbons than two strokes. The idea of using pre-mix is so that you don't have to have a crankcase full of oil to carry and/or worry about. Stihl has been using this hybrid technology for several years with great results.

 

[Jim 5]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
A four stroke engine with no crankcase and uses a premix-Hmmm, why not just use a two stroke without all the valves isnt it going to immit the same exhuast except make more power per size.Basically a 21cc two stroke is going to make as much power or more than a 31cc four stroke and if they both use Pre-mix, I see no sense in this machine except a nifty Hybrid name. This is what happens when when enviromentalist get involved in engine designs.


I agree. It's the same reason I have to waste 2.5 gallons of fuel every 300 miles for my Duramax to dump through the Diesel Particulate Filter for cleaning.

I could be getting around 21 on the highway, but with that factored in, I get around 17. So I have a choice between a 100k diesel engine/transmission warranty at 17 MPG or a warranty-less truck at 21 MPG. Not to mention all the havok that the EGR plays with the intake/reliability/durability.

It's a shame to see manufacturers deliberately making a good product worse for the sake of perceived benefit to the environment.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I just talked to a friend of mine and he was telling me that he just burned up one of the new technology Hybrid motors, which is a 4stroke engine, but uses oil/gas mixture with no crankcase. Manufacturer recommends normal oil at 50:1.
This trimmer is a Shindawa C4 Hybrid. He was using Amsoil Sabre professional at 80:1 like he uses in all his other commercial machines. Never had a problem and loves the Amsoil convenience. He owns a landscaping company.


How could he make a clain against Shindawa if he used the wrong fuel/gas ratio?

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice

If I were him I think I would speak with both a Shindawa and Amsoil about his situation.

One thing I have learned is to NEVER use a leaner fuel/oil mix than specified when breaking-in a new 2-cycle engine.

 

[scudpilot]

He's not making a claim against anyone. He is going to stick with the traditional trimmers and blowers now since he wants to use 1 oil mix for all his equipment. He doesn't trust his guys to mix the multiple oils. That's why he loves the Amsoil 100:1. In this case I think this machine needed a lot more lube than the 80:1 gave him.
I have used the same oil at 80:1 in a snowblower/trimmer/chainsaw/hedge trimmer/backpack blower since new and love it. Never replaced a plug on anything and no smoke.

 

[boraticus]

"Four stroke engines produce waaay less hydrocarbons than two strokes."

Why do you say that? Hydrocarbons come from burning gasoline. The oil being cycled through the engine comes out as smoke/soot. If you're talking about the volume of fuel being burned as the main contributor to additional hydrocarbon emissions in a two stroke, I agree. However, the new two stroke engine run very lean and I doubt very much that the claims of four strokes burning 30% less fuel than modern two stroke engines is anywhere near accurate.

As far as oil to fuel ratios go, running leaner than manufacturers recommendation is risking failure regardless what oil is being used. Do so at your own risk.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: scudpilot
He's not making a claim against anyone. He is going to stick with the traditional trimmers and blowers now since he wants to use 1 oil mix for all his equipment. He doesn't trust his guys to mix the multiple oils. That's why he loves the Amsoil 100:1. In this case I think this machine needed a lot more lube than the 80:1 gave him.
I have used the same oil at 80:1 in a snowblower/trimmer/chainsaw/hedge trimmer/backpack blower since new and love it. Never replaced a plug on anything and no smoke.


I doubt it's the oil but human error. Like I've said before when you have three Joe's operating an equipment human errors can occur. One of the reason I don't like the Honda 4 stroke CHANGING THE VERY SMALL OIL SUMP the potential miscommunication
or lack of it can cause engine burn out when there is no oil. It has nothing to do with Honda's equipment performance.

There is about 500+ hours on a Shindaiwa 4 stroke hybrid hand blower which has had no problems with the Shindaiwa One two stroke oil at 50:1. There is some carbon build up that needs to be cleaned out but valves were ok no adjustment. The 4 stroke hybrid has more low end torque it performs great for blowers.

For weed trimmers the 4 stroke hybrids are bulky it has an uncomfortable balance. Also today's 2 Strokes will last longer than the 4 Strokes.

The only equipment I like with the 4 stroke hybrid are blowers. Strong low end torque great performance but also far less hour usage versus the weed trimmers. It's a luxury over the 2 stroke but you have your pro's and con's. If in doubt stick with the 2 stroke.

The 4 strokes are luxury over the 2 stroke because of low end torque but the 4 stroke will not last longer over the 2 stroke.
There pro's and con's on the 4 stroke but if in doubt stick with the 2 stroke, reason these equipment aren't cheap so it's best to enjoy your purchase rather than regret it later.

I've seen many home owners regret their purchases. On a commercial level dealers rather sell the 2 stroke over the 4 stroke reason less potential problems down the road and today's 2 strokes are better engines over the 4 stroke.

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: boraticus

"Four stroke engines produce waaay less hydrocarbons than two strokes."

Why do you say that? Hydrocarbons come from burning gasoline. The oil being cycled through the engine comes out as smoke/soot. If you're talking about the volume of fuel being burned as the main contributor to additional hydrocarbon emissions in a two stroke, I agree. However, the new two stroke engine run very lean and I doubt very much that the claims of four strokes burning 30% less fuel than modern two stroke engines is anywhere near accurate.

As far as oil to fuel ratios go, running leaner than manufacturers recommendation is risking failure regardless what oil is being used. Do so at your own risk.


It's simple. Hydrocarbons are caused largely by unburned fuel. Four strokes burn a much higher percentage of the fuel charge, thereby producing way less hydrocarbons.

They burn less fuel simply because they only burn every other stroke, not every stroke like a two cycle does.

 

[JTK]

Regardless of the product or the situation, once the product is put to commercial use, the warranty is pretty much caput. You get like 60 or 90 days, that's it. If this guy is "commercial" he probably buys enough equipment from his dealer of choice, for that dealer to toss a new string trimmer his way. That dealer should take the shot Shindawa in and see if he can persue a replacement or refund.

Joel

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: boraticus

"Four stroke engines produce waaay less hydrocarbons than two strokes."

Why do you say that? Hydrocarbons come from burning gasoline. The oil being cycled through the engine comes out as smoke/soot. If you're talking about the volume of fuel being burned as the main contributor to additional hydrocarbon emissions in a two stroke, I agree. However, the new two stroke engine run very lean and I doubt very much that the claims of four strokes burning 30% less fuel than modern two stroke engines is anywhere near accurate.

As far as oil to fuel ratios go, running leaner than manufacturers recommendation is risking failure regardless what oil is being used. Do so at your own risk.


It's simple. Hydrocarbons are caused largely by unburned fuel. Four strokes burn a much higher percentage of the fuel charge, thereby producing way less hydrocarbons.

They burn less fuel simply because they only burn every other stroke, not every stroke like a two cycle does.


Even two strokes with catalytic converters? The new Echo products that I've purchased in the last two years or so use catalytic converters.

 

[Cujet]

I've been saying this for years: Two stroke oil ratio's do affect engine life. High performance engines show less wear on 32 to 1 vs. 50 to 1. 100 to 1 clearly produced wear.

I'll put a dollar on the fact that the engine suffered a lubrication related failure.

In the marine testing that I did, even 50 to 1 produced more measurable wear in very long life engines.

While everybody hates a smokey, smelly 2 stroke, the facts speak for themselves. Engines last longer and perform better with more oil.

 

[Panzerman]

I like smelly, smokey two strokes. Ive been running Ammoco two stroke oil and later Pennzoil two stroke when I could no longer get the Ammoco at 32:1 in my Sears weedeater for 16 1/2 years and that things wont die. Been thru two weed whacker heads at the end of the shaft, grease the shaft cable every year and other than that that thing still runs like a top. I run it full throttle too and it just keeps going.

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I've been saying this for years: Two stroke oil ratio's do affect engine life.


Duh. That is a given. Anyone that's been around two strokes for 20 minutes should know that.

Originally Posted By: Cujet
High performance engines show less wear on 32 to 1 vs. 50 to 1.


Not true at all. Using the correct oil at 50:1 produces no more wear than a richer mixture.


Originally Posted By: Cujet
While everybody hates a smokey, smelly 2 stroke, the facts speak for themselves. Engines last longer and perform better with more oil.


Again, not true. Engines last longer and perform better with the correct amount of lubrication, and that does not mean more oil is better.

 

[boraticus]

When I read posts about people buying expensive synthetic two stroke oil to run much higher fuel to oil ratios than recommended by manufacturers, I have to wonder, for what reason? If it's economics, I wonder if they actually do a cost/benefit analysis to determine if it's actually beneficial.

For instance, why pay three times as much for synthetic two cycle oil to run it at 1/2 the recommended ratio? That doesn't make sense. As well as accelerated engine wear/failure due to inadequate lubrication. Is there some secret "badge of achievement" by running super thin oil ratios? Being a looooong time two stroke owner/enthusiast, I do not understand this thinking at all.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I've been saying this for years: Two stroke oil ratio's do affect engine life.


Duh. That is a given. Anyone that's been around two strokes for 20 minutes should know that.

Originally Posted By: Cujet
High performance engines show less wear on 32 to 1 vs. 50 to 1.


Not true at all. Using the correct oil at 50:1 produces no more wear than a richer mixture.


Originally Posted By: Cujet
While everybody hates a smokey, smelly 2 stroke, the facts speak for themselves. Engines last longer and perform better with more oil.


Again, not true. Engines last longer and perform better with the correct amount of lubrication, and that does not mean more oil is better.


Years ago, I worked as a junior mechanic for a group doing testing for Mercury Marine. Since, it was a long time ago, when 2 strokes were king, I won't say the data applies to all 2 stroke engines today. Not to mention a Shindawa 4 stroke.

However, I did do many of the teardowns for the engineers. I also did quite a bit of precision measurement and became quite familiar with Nikon microscopes. I did not have access to the final reports, but I can give my opinion on what I saw.

I stand by my "facts" with regard to high performance 2 strokes and oil ratio's. We measured output with differing ratio's. The reason for the test was a report by McCullough claiming oil ratio affects output.

What I remember from the test is that highly tuned race engines are hard on components and wear much more quickly than the average engine. Mainly due to port size. But also due to RPM's and the doubling of the output.

We measured output with a wide range of ratio's. We also disassembled engines to measure wear. The 16 to 1 engines made the most power, were substantially cleaner inside and had the least wear. Yes, I know, that goes against conventional wisdom, but we were in the business of winning races and selling engines. Which we were very successful at, I may add.

8 to 1 produced the most power but was difficult to use.
16 to 1 was nearly as powerful as 8 but ran properly.
32 to 1 is enough protection for all but the most radical engines.
50 to 1 produced slightly more wear in modified engines.
100 to 1 resulted in significant wear, scuffing and ultimately crankshaft overheating and failure in highly modified engines.

Once again, this was long ago, oils are better now and so on. But the facts remain,
100 to 1 is risky for a number of reasons. Engines with high specific output should avoid 100 to 1.

I don't know, but that Shindawa may have a need for significant lubrication.

EDIT: lean oil ratio's resulted in significant wear of the cylinder directly above the exhaust port.