Redline Water Wetter and Royal Purple Purple Ice

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I can understand it reducing metal temperature,


That's exactly what it can conceivably do, if there's poor "wetting" of the metal without it (as there might be with straight water). There's absolutely no way that I believe for one second that a wetting agent is going to lower COOLANT temperature at the exit of the engine (where the temp gauge sender is virtually always located). If the radiator had ever been contaminated with oil, it *might* help the heat transfer out of the coolant to the radiator and then to the air. But if the radiator is clean, there's nothing for it to really do in there.

As others have said, the THERMOSTAT sets the maximum coolant temperature, unless the cooling system can't keep up and the stat goes wide open and loses control of the cooling system. And wetting agents aren't going to help with that.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

As others have said, the THERMOSTAT sets the maximum coolant temperature, unless the cooling system can't keep up and the stat goes wide open and loses control of the cooling system. And wetting agents aren't going to help with that.



This is where you and others are wrong. The THERMOSTAT DOES NOT set the maximum coolant temperature, only the temperature where it will open and allow the coolant to be pumped to the radiator. The thermostat is a coolant flow regulator, nothing more. When the engine overheat and the coolant is spilling out of your radiator then the engine coolant temperature is much greater than the thermostat setting. This is easily verified with a Scan Gauge or a real temperature guage. In most of my vehicles the normal coolant temperature varies from 175F t0 207F degrees year round depending on my driving conditions. The idiot coolant gauge in the car is rock steady once the engine is warmed up even though the coolant temperature is fluctuating by more than 30F.

 

[Shannow]

Unless the water wetter significantly changes the thermal capacity of the coolant, the mass flow of coolant to carry away the heat needs to be the same (or more, if water wetter is keeping the metal cooler by taking away the heat).

To get the same mass flow, needs the same orifice opening in the variable orifice thermostat, and therefore the thermostat needs to be at the same temperature to control that orifice size...ergo same coolant temperature.

It's the thermostat's JOB to control coolant temperature.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

As others have said, the THERMOSTAT sets the maximum coolant temperature, unless the cooling system can't keep up and the stat goes wide open and loses control of the cooling system. And wetting agents aren't going to help with that.



This is where you and others are wrong. The THERMOSTAT DOES NOT set the maximum coolant temperature, only the temperature where it will open and allow the coolant to be pumped to the radiator.


Then you missed the part where I said, "unless the cooling system can't keep up and the thermostat loses control of the system."

That is an abnormal situation. A malfunction. It should never happen in a properly sized cooling system with an engine-driven fan. True, some cooling systems have an electric fan and the electric fan setpoint is usually higher than the thermostat, because its most thermodynamically efficient to circulate coolant as fast as possible with as little actual temperature variation from engine outlet to inlet as possible. But in that case, just substitute "cooling fan thermostat" for "engine thermostat," and what I said still applies- the fan controller should be the limiting factor in coolant temp in that case. In that case, adding a wetting agent *still* won't affect the coolant temperature, unless there's an contaminant film on the inside of the radiator tubes which the surfactant can break. Again- an abnormal situation, especially since antifreezes have surfactants

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
In most of my vehicles the normal coolant temperature varies from 175F t0 207F degrees year round depending on my driving conditions. The idiot coolant gauge in the car is rock steady once the engine is warmed up even though the coolant temperature is fluctuating by more than 30F.


None of my cars have idiot-type temp gauges, they all have full analog gauges that show variation. However, none of them vary by more than a few degrees from the T-stat (or fan) setpoint, except for the '69 which will overheat slightly under certain conditions with the A/C on. Guess what... I've tried Water Wetter in it, and it makes absolutely ZERO difference compared to the surfactants in antifreeze alone. It just doesn't quite have enough radiator for 100-degree weather and the A/C on for some reason, although the '66 does just fine in the same situations. I think the body styling of the '69 just allows more hot air to recirculate back into the front of the radiator when the car isn't moving.

Again- I think there IS an application for Water Wetter and Purple Ice- namely a race car that doesn't run any antifreeze. But for any street car, they're useless and redundant with the surfactants in the antifreeze itself. And even in a race car, the actual effect of the WW/PI is to lower the engine METAL temparature, not lower the COOLANT temperature, especially at the measurement point (where it exits the engine).

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

Then you missed the part where I said, "unless the cooling system can't keep up and the thermostat loses control of the system."


No I did not. You said the thermostat set the maximum coolant temperature which is wrong. What maximum temperature exactly does it set to? If there is no coolant in the engine then then what maximum engine temperature does it set to? If you think your analog gauge is correct then you will be in for a surprise when you install an actual temperature gauge in the coolant. There is a reason why car manufacturers test their vehicles in Arizona. In the summer the coolant temperature will vary by as much as 40 degrees even though your analog gauge shows very little variation, same thing with the analog transmission temp gauge. Get a Scan Gauge and you will see what I mean. BTW, I can make almost any new cars overheat here in AZ without exceeding the manufacturer specifications. The Water Wetter and similar products are not designed only for race car but also for non racing but severe usage. Try driving in the summer in AZ with speed less than 5 mph while climing a 5 mile long hill at 6% grade in 127 degree heat while towing maximum CGWR with the A/C on. Real life experience (driving south on AZ I-17 from Camp Verde) shows that Water Wetter does make a difference in preventing overheating.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Unless the water wetter significantly changes the thermal capacity of the coolant, the mass flow of coolant to carry away the heat needs to be the same (or more, if water wetter is keeping the metal cooler by taking away the heat).

It's the thermostat's JOB to control coolant temperature.


There is a different between thermal capacity and thermal transfer. The Water Wetter helps the thermal transfer process. The thermostat controls the flow of coolant to the radiator. The radiator thermal transfer capability control the coolant temperature. What happens if you install the thermostat backward? Does it still control the coolant temperature and why not?

Also, all factory thermostats are set for engine efficiency and not for maximum cooling.

 

[azsynthetic]

Here is a patent on a thermostat. No where in the patent does it state that it sets the coolant temperature, maximum or otherwise.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5961037.html

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Unless the water wetter significantly changes the thermal capacity of the coolant, the mass flow of coolant to carry away the heat needs to be the same (or more, if water wetter is keeping the metal cooler by taking away the heat).

It's the thermostat's JOB to control coolant temperature.


There is a different between thermal capacity and thermal transfer. The Water Wetter helps the thermal transfer process. The thermostat controls the flow of coolant to the radiator. The radiator thermal transfer capability control the coolant temperature. What happens if you install the thermostat backward? Does it still control the coolant temperature and why not?

Also, all factory thermostats are set for engine efficiency and not for maximum cooling.


I don't believe water wetter increases water's thermal conductivity any appreciable amount. I'd bet if you ran straight water plus 5% of any good quality inhibitor pack you would get the same results. What inhibitors are in water wetter anyway? Probably some OAT but no one really knows. Most likely not very effective ones.

If your street car can't cool properly with a 50/50 mixture of anti-freeze and water then you need a bigger radiator and cooling fans.

On a race car that seems limited use water wetter might be OK, but there are better inhibitor packs you could use when running straight water.

 

[Kaboomba]

Water Wetter, Purple Ice, etc make it easier for heat transfer to occur between the engine block and the coolant, and easier to transfer heat energy from the coolant to the radiator. Those two interfaces become more effeicient at transferring energy.

At the same time, heat transfer efficiency and rate of heat transfer improves as temperature differential increases between ANY two objects.

SO

The coolant absorbs more heat from the engine as it works through the block (at a given flow rate), and deposits that heat more easily into the radiator metal, and because the radiator is now hotter, it rejects more heat faster into the air. But you don't see any of this until the cooling system is running beyond what is normally it's peak cooling capacity. Sometimes, under sever conditions, because cooling capacity increases as the radiator temperature increases, you will slowly find an equilibirium coolant temperature above the thermostat setting. The rate of temperature increase will slow down as the temperature goes up until you saturate your cooling airflow. Water wetter slows this approach to saturation by making the radiator run hotter, thus dumping more energy into the cooling air you've got to work with.

What I typically do is run 30/70 Propylene Glycol/Water and Water Wetter. This gives me a 15% higher heat capacity (thanks to water) in the unchanging cooling flow (it's like running a bigger water pump, only it doesn't rob your power), AND makes the system more efficient at absorbing and rejecting heat energy into and out of that extra capacity.

87MPH, 4-5% grade, 6,200ft, 102F ambient (August 2008 in Castle Rock, CO), 72F climate control=215F coolant temp checked with ScanTool

Yep, good stuff.

Best,

K

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Here is a patent on a thermostat. No where in the patent does it state that it sets the coolant temperature, maximum or otherwise.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5961037.html


What is it supposed to do then ?

The thermostat provides a variable opening, based on the temperature that it sees.

That is a CONTROL function, and it controls the rate at which water flows through it...which allows a certain amount of heat to be taken out.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

What is it supposed to do then ?

The thermostat provides a variable opening, based on the temperature that it sees.

That is a CONTROL function, and it controls the rate at which water flows through it...which allows a certain amount of heat to be taken out.


What part of "control the flow of coolant to the radiator" don't you understand? If there is no radiator then it will still control the flow of coolant but the thermostat by itself doesn't remove or add any thermal energy. Heat can only be removed by the RADIATOR with or without the thermostat.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

I don't believe water wetter increases water's thermal conductivity any appreciable amount. I'd bet if you ran straight water plus 5% of any good quality inhibitor pack you would get the same results. What inhibitors are in water wetter anyway? Probably some OAT but no one really knows. Most likely not very effective ones.


First you don't believe, then you want to make a bet, then you ask what is it, then you make some assumptions with "probably" and "most likely". Why don't you try some then tell us the real story?

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
On a race car that seems limited use water wetter might be OK, but there are better inhibitor packs you could use when running straight water.


Here you go again with it "might be OK" and then assume there are better inhibitor packs with no specific example given ???????

 

[mechanicx]

. I don't need to prove WW doesn't help increase thermal conductivity of water or that it inhibits corrosion well. I don't think it does. You and WW have offered nothing that would convince me otherwise. I gave specific inhibitor packs, Pencool 3000, FleetGuard DCA-2 or DCA-4 or basically any inhibitor pack that would normally be used to recycle anti-freeze with a real track record.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Shannow

What is it supposed to do then ?

The thermostat provides a variable opening, based on the temperature that it sees.

That is a CONTROL function, and it controls the rate at which water flows through it...which allows a certain amount of heat to be taken out.


What part of "control the flow of coolant to the radiator" don't you understand? If there is no radiator then it will still control the flow of coolant but the thermostat by itself doesn't remove or add any thermal energy. Heat can only be removed by the RADIATOR with or without the thermostat.


Mate, my world revo0lves around heat transfer.

YOU told ME that the thermostat has no control function.

The radiator does NOT control the temperature of the coolant, it's a heat exchanger discharging heat to the ambient air (which then again does NOT control coolant temperature).

The radiator and atmosphere (plus the boiling point of the coolant and flow rate) provide the outline of the envelope of heat rejection to the environment.

If that becomes the controlling element of ANY engine used in a street environment, then the designer needs to be shot, or you need your licence removed.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Mate, my world revo0lves around heat transfer.

YOU told ME that the thermostat has no control function.

The radiator does NOT control the temperature of the coolant, it's a heat exchanger discharging heat to the ambient air (which then again does NOT control coolant temperature).

The radiator and atmosphere (plus the boiling point of the coolant and flow rate) provide the outline of the envelope of heat rejection to the environment.

If that becomes the controlling element of ANY engine used in a street environment, then the designer needs to be shot, or you need your licence removed.


I think you have reading comprehension problem.

Fact 1: I TOLD YOU the thermostat CONTROLS THE FLOW OF COOLANT and not the temperature. Without a radiator the temperature of the coolant will not change, hence the thermostat does not control the temperature.

Fact 2: The radiator removes heat (i.e. a heat exchanger) from the coolant so therefore it controls the temperature of the coolant (from higher tempt to cooler temp), with or without the thermostat. Pretty much any car can operate without a thermostat, but very few can operate without a radiator. Air cooled Porsche and VW engines use the oil as a coolant. The heater in your car is also a radiator that control the coolant temperature. If you car overheat it is recommend that you turn on the heater to max setting to help lower the coolant temperature. In the winter, some northerners block the radiator so that the coolant will heat up faster.

For maximum efficiency, any internal combustion engines should get to normal operating temperature range as quickly as possible. The thermostat is one way to achieve this goal by controlling the flow of the coolant to the radiator when the engine is cool. Another way is with an engine block heater. If electricity is free and very engine comes with a block heater then you would not need a thermostat. Once the engine is warmed up the thermostat is pretty much useless.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I don't need to prove WW doesn't help increase thermal conductivity of water or that it inhibits corrosion well. I don't think it does. You and WW have offered nothing that would convince me otherwise. I gave specific inhibitor packs, Pencool 3000, FleetGuard DCA-2 or DCA-4 or basically any inhibitor pack that would normally be used to recycle anti-freeze with a real track record.


The charter of this forum suggests that you backup what you said and not just "I don't need" and "I don't think". I and others in this thread have told you real world results and not just assumptions like what you are doing. The purpose of Water Wetter and others simmilar are not to recycle anti-freeze. Here is Redline technical paper on Water Wetter.

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter Tech Info.pdf

Where is your proof to dispute this paper?

 

[mechanicx]

You are not understanding what I'm saying. I meant you can use the additive pack with water that typically gets used to recycle/recharge anti-freeze.

Anyway you are asking someone to prove a negative that WW doesn't increase heat transfer much and doesn't prevent corrosion effectively. Well by WW own claims it doesn't increase heat transfer much over straight water or have that good of corrosion protection. No where did I see on that sheet that it even claimed to meet the minimum standard of an inhibitor pack-ASTM 3306. Let alone any other various specs. That's all the proof anyone needs. Other inhibitor packs meet various specs.

 

[azsynthetic]

And this is why you misunderstood the purpose of Water Wetter. You assume that it is a replacement for the inhibitor packs whereas Redline even instruct you how to mix it with factory coolant. Like I have said before, the Water Wetter helps in the heat transfer process. Unless you are operating at the limit, Water Wetter is indeed a waste of money. I use it because there are times when I am at the limit of my vehicle cooling systems, and yes I do have a larger oil cooler, a separate tranny cooler, and a manually control electric fan clutch.

 

[mechanicx]

It is also recommended to be used with straight water. That was its real intended purpose to be used in racing with straight water for short periods of time and drained often.

It can also be used with coolant but WW claims that it breaks waters surface tension any better than the inhibitor pack in anti-freeze does anyway is questionable. WW sort of claims that adding WW to a 50/50 coolant mix makes it conduct heat as well as water. That is doubtful and is not really independently verified.

My whole point is why not get some real inhibitor additves and either add it to straight water or some diluted level of antifreeze maybe 70/30 water/antifreeze like they do in industries where they run engines with straight water.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
I think you have reading comprehension problem.

Fact 1: I TOLD YOU the thermostat CONTROLS THE FLOW OF COOLANT and not the temperature. Without a radiator the temperature of the coolant will not change, hence the thermostat does not control the temperature.


If the radiator is the controlling element in anything other than full power conditions,l the engine will never warm up...e.g. idling on a snowy day...thermostat controls the temperature.

Same way a cistern valve controls the level in your toilet tank, when it doesn't know, or care what the dame level is, now whether your cistern has 2 square feet of surface area or is an olympic pool.