Video: Cut-open Subaru 15208AA12A & FRAM PH9715

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Hi Guys,

Didn't know I was getting talked about
wink.gif
.

Soobs contacted me on Nasioc....I did not test an orange can PH9715. It was off my Honda (PH3593a maybe?) so the comments about the relative number of pleats might (probably is) inconsistent. My bad for that. The ADBV on the 12a filter did not feel like the nitrile valve off of a Purolator Premium 14610 that I had, so I assumed that Honeywell was using a black silicone valve (most silicone valves are orange/red). Anyway, I'm always up for learning more, so lets keep this investigation alive.

I guess the only valid thing that I found was the bypass pressures on the 12a and the black Tokyo Roki filter.

Soobs, did you feel like the bypass valve assembly leaf spring was glued to the filter element on your 12a? In my experience cutting open a few 12a's, there was definitely resistance removing that part from the element (as well as the ADBV) whereas on the 3593a Fram, the bypass valve assembly leaf spring just fell off with no resistance.
 
Originally Posted By: 09rexwagon

Soobs, did you feel like the bypass valve assembly leaf spring was glued to the filter element on your 12a? In my experience cutting open a few 12a's, there was definitely resistance removing that part from the element (as well as the ADBV) whereas on the 3593a Fram, the bypass valve assembly leaf spring just fell off with no resistance.


I've only cut open one 12a and it was used. The relief spring assembly fell right off (but again, it was used).
 
Rex,

Just out of curiousity, when you compared the OEM vs. FRAM PH3593A last year, why did you use that particular aftermarket FRAM? FRAM's filter application lookup shows the PH9715 for your 2009 Subaru. They only reference the 3593A for 2004 and earlier models (EJ205 and earlier engines). Was the 9715 not available at the time? I wonder which came first... The PH9715 or the 12A....
 
Thanks for the kind comments!
I just posted this on a different forum, but I will throw it up here too......


As far as the pressure relief valve goes I've been reexamining this myself. I haven't done anything to test their respective PSI resistance differences because I don't really have the equipment to do it. As I said in the video, they felt the same, but my sensitivity to a 12-14 psi spring vs. a 23 psi spring may not be that great. That's why I'd prefer to say that there are no conclusive facts on my end that the blue filter is or is not a 23psi relief valve; however, after reexamining the parts I believe the OEM filter most likely does have a different opening pressure.

Here are a few pictures that should answer some of the questions that have popped up:


These are the pressure relief valve springs. The OEM spring has slightly more coil which would require more pressure to open.

OEMvs9715_springs.jpg



Here are the relief valve openings. 100% identical dimensions and opening diameter.

026.JPG



Last, we have the actual plastic relief valves. These also have the same dimensions, but the brown one is made of a much tougher grade plastic. I suspect this is due to the assumed higher pressures and stronger spring in the OEM.

027.JPG
 
Originally Posted By: Soobs

... however, after reexamining the parts I believe the OEM filter most likely does have a different opening pressure.

Last, we have the actual plastic relief valves. These also have the same dimensions ...


If the plastic bypass valve piece has the exact same diameter, and the distance from the valve's head to the hooks that the spring pushes up against to keep the valve closed are the same, then the longer spring will have a slightly higher compressed force and hence make the bypass valve open at a higher PSI.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
I see nothing special about the Subaru filter.

It has the spec'd high-pressure bypass valve that the standard Fram does not have. That and the P-shaped gasket.

Originally Posted By: sayjac
As for the P design, the only filter I ever had leak was a P type design Toyota Denso filter installed by the dealer. Had to be replaced by a new one. Never had a flat gasket design leak.

I don't see the point of a P-shaped gasket either, nor do I agree that it's better than a nice, flat, thick, square-cut one.

Why is a P or a round-cut gasket considered superior? Anyone?
 
Sorry, the PH3593a was off of my 98 Civic so I had it laying around. I didn't think that the number of pleats would be significantly different from model to model. My bad for the poor comparison.

Soobs, do you have a kitchen scale? If so you can get the bypass pressure by determining the force at which the valve just starts to open and then do the math on the surface area of the exposed valve face to get the pressure. I used a socket sitting on the scale to push the valve face (remember to tare the weight of the socket on the scale).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Soobs

... however, after reexamining the parts I believe the OEM filter most likely does have a different opening pressure.

Last, we have the actual plastic relief valves. These also have the same dimensions ...


If the plastic bypass valve piece has the exact same diameter, and the distance from the valve's head to the hooks that the spring pushes up against to keep the valve closed are the same, then the longer spring will have a slightly higher compressed force and hence make the bypass valve open at a higher PSI.
Assuming the spring rate of both springs are the same.
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Soobs

... however, after reexamining the parts I believe the OEM filter most likely does have a different opening pressure.

Last, we have the actual plastic relief valves. These also have the same dimensions ...


If the plastic bypass valve piece has the exact same diameter, and the distance from the valve's head to the hooks that the spring pushes up against to keep the valve closed are the same, then the longer spring will have a slightly higher compressed force and hence make the bypass valve open at a higher PSI.


Yes, the distance from the valve's head to the hooks are exactly the same.
 
Originally Posted By: 09rexwagon

Soobs, do you have a kitchen scale? If so you can get the bypass pressure by determining the force at which the valve just starts to open and then do the math on the surface area of the exposed valve face to get the pressure. I used a socket sitting on the scale to push the valve face (remember to tare the weight of the socket on the scale).


Unfortunately I don't have any scales at all. I'm not too terribly concerned with testing to see if it's exactly at 23psi anymore as I just wanted to prove there was some kind of difference between the two. Everything I've taken apart leads me to assume that it would take a higher pressure to open the OEM valve. Well... now that I got this out of my system... what next! :)
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac

Why is a P or a round-cut gasket considered superior? Anyone?


P-molded gaskets are generally considered better because (I think) they're molded right into the baseplate which is supposed to provide a superior seal. They're actually kind of difficult to take out. A lathe-cut gasket is precut and is simply laid on top of the baseplate and then a machine comes by and pinches the inner metal lip in a few spots to secure it.

Now, have there been p-molds that have leaked? Sure. Defects happen in materials and workmanship from time to time. Toyota had a oil filter recall in the past due to a problem with their p-mold gaskets. But lathe-cut can have issues too and I can tell you from personal experience that I've had leaks with the lathe-cut on a PureOne when the tempatures fall into the negatives. This is not to say every lathe-cut gasket will have this issue, because they don't, but more often than not the Subaru shop mechanics see leaks with aftermarkets because of this. I really think the gasket on the Purolator PL14612 isn't thick enough and there is occassionaly yellow grip-paint overspray underneath the gasket, causing sealing issues. Every once in a blue moon I'll see aftermarkets with p-molds. I know the Champ Labs oil filters all do for pre-2004 (EJ205 and earlier) engines.

In any event, I don't think this is really a widespread issue and most people never have a problem with sealing regardless of the gasket design. It's best to just use what you like and what works best for your application.
55.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Soobs
Originally Posted By: sayjac

Why is a P or a round-cut gasket considered superior? Anyone?


P-molded gaskets are generally considered better because (I think) they're molded right into the baseplate which is supposed to provide a superior seal. They're actually kind of difficult to take out.


I know the P-gaskets used on the Toyota filters are not molded into the base plate, as they are removable ... which means they are molded separately and then installed into the base plate.
 
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Soobs
Originally Posted By: sayjac

Why is a P or a round-cut gasket considered superior? Anyone?


P-molded gaskets are generally considered better because (I think) they're molded right into the baseplate which is supposed to provide a superior seal. They're actually kind of difficult to take out.


I know the P-gaskets used on the Toyota filters are not molded into the base plate, as they are removable ... which means they are molded separately and then installed into the base plate.


Either way, they fit much more snug. I didn't say it was impossible to take them out, just harder than a lathe-cut.
 
Originally Posted By: webfors
I don't like being lied to by Subaru about that new filter... hence I won't buy it. In canada they want almost $8 for it. Paaalease!

There are a lot better filters out there for less!


I guess I have to take back my statement, as there are indeed differences between the two filters. Not much difference mind you.. and certainly not worth the $8 the dealer wants. I suppose if they could be bought in bulk at $5 or less I might consider them.
 
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