Honda 0W20 / Red Line 0W20 / RLI Bio-Syn 0W20

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Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And one of those requirements is a very low start-up viscosity while retaining a high viscosity at operating temperature; which translates into a 200 plus VI.


The holy grail of PCMO
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It sure looks that way. Even the boutique oil blenders seem to be a little behind the times here. The prices for these oils are competitive too. I can't wait to see what's next from Amsoil, Redline, Pennzoil and Mobil to answer the challenge here.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Honda and Toyota have raised the 0W-20 grade lubrication bar, and I believe it's just a matter of time before other formulators like RL take up the challenge. RL did it with their relatively new 0W-40 which has a higher VI (197) than M1's 0W-40 (186). I'm sure they'll improve the relatively low 166 VI of their 0W-20 in the not too distant future.


I don't think you'll see RL chasing after a 200+ VI anytime soon (at least for a 0W-20), it comes with too many penalties. When the VI is that far removed from the VI of the base oils, I personally become skeptical of the product. A 210 VI from an oil using base oils in the 120 range only means one thing.

It's not like a high VI is magic or even hard to come by, I have a $4.50 bottle of Group III base Motorcraft Mercon V sitting on my toolbox right now, it has a VI of 205. I would take M1 ATF, RL D4 ATF, Amsoil ATF or any number of much higher quality synthetics over it, despite all having VIs in the 160-170 range. The final result in a much more shear stable, and potentially lower varnish formulation.

You place far too much emphasis on VI, IMO. A high VI does not a good motor oil make, and a large dose of polymeric thickeners comes with major drawbacks.
 
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
A high VI does not a good motor oil make...


That should read: A high VI alone does not a good motor oil make...
 
Do you actually believe Honda or Toyota would specify an oil that didn't hold up in service?
American Honda's principal chemist, Jeff Jetter, in discussing the 0W-20 oil, described it as being "very robust".
Obviously we'll know soon enough how we'll these oils do hold up as the UOA's start to come in, but early indications are quite promising.
We do have a 5,000 plus mile UOA on a Tundra that's been running the Toyota oil since new and the 100C vis is a respectable 8.0 cSt. That a 9% shear which compares very favourably with M1 and RLI which commonly shear down below 8.0 in service.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Do you actually believe Honda or Toyota would specify an oil that didn't hold up in service?


I believe it may hold up reasonably well, but yes I absolutely believe Honda and Toyota would specify an oil that didn't hold up nearly as well as some premium aftermarket alternatives. We see this all the time in numerous things automotive. That fact that it says Honda or Toyota on the label means absolutely nothing to me.

Quote:
American Honda's principal chemist, Jeff Jetter, in discussing the 0W-20 oil, described it as being "very robust".


That's scientific.

Quote:
Obviously we'll know soon enough how we'll these oils do hold up as the UOA's start to come in, but early indications are quite promising.
We do have a 5,000 plus mile UOA on a Tundra that's been running the Toyota oil since new and the 100C vis is a respectable 8.0 cSt. That a 9% shear which compares very favourably with M1 and RLI which commonly shear down below 8.0 in service.


9% shear from a 5,000 mile UOA, from a 0W-20 no less? M1 0W-20 usually only drops below 8.0 cSt when it sees notable fuel dilution, and this is usually in ~7000 mile or longer UOAs. I do not think the Toyota 0W-20 will fare as well when introduced to fuel dilution and longer OCIs.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And one of those requirements is a very low start-up viscosity while retaining a high viscosity at operating temperature; which translates into a 200 plus VI.


The holy grail of PCMO
20.gif



It sure looks that way. Even the boutique oil blenders seem to be a little behind the times here. The prices for these oils are competitive too. I can't wait to see what's next from Amsoil, Redline, Pennzoil and Mobil to answer the challenge here.


Rumble just posted on a Toyota oil thread a letter from Toyota to it's dealers increasing the OCI on it's 0W-20 grade to 10,000 miles for many 2010 models.
They're obviously pretty satisfied with the long term durability of their new 0W-20 oil.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: buster
Right. I was told even the RL 0w-20 uses some VII's hence the lower HT/HS.


Actually, it contains no VII's according to Dave at RL.


Interesting, thanks. I thought it did. Good to know.
 
Long ago old post But I was told only the 0W-40 Had some VII's in it and they are of a very high quality.
Ken
 
The part # for the Honda (Idemitsu made) oil is 08798-9029

As of a couple of months ago American Honda has switched suppliers to apparently CoP so this VOA won't apply to the new oil.
To know the difference, the new part numbers are as follows:
for the syn blend 08798-9036 and 08798-9037 for the full syn.
 
Thanks for posting and I was surprised that the Honda oil has half the detergents of most Mobil one oils, so it is not good for a long OCI. All the oils are rather too high for my TDI in Moly terms (I'm not keen on seeing more than 200 ppm of Mo cos it can cause an increase in long term corrosion in some diesels that have long OCI's).
When you see a non race oil like the Honda one with a shed and a half load of Moly, I would question if they are using too thin an oil and have made up for the lower viscosity by using high levels of Mo for the more frequent times that the oil film fails (Mostly cold starts or serious right boot abuse).
 
lots of changes in a few years let alone 8! i know VII's are said to be improving but i always wonder about the real aka unaltered base oils viscosity index. the motoroilevaluator site notes how VII's can be easily prop up a low VI oil with cheap VII's. reading a long link i found on this forum noted that very low cst ester oils can be blended with higher cst base ester oil to reach the properties wanted, also noting cost of some esters being quite high, it plays into to final formulation. very low cst esters have a tendency to burn off depending on what ester is used. it seems almost any propertiey can be met using various esters when cost is not an issue!! as usual $$$$$
 
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