2000- Ford 7.3 , hi copper

[Snowman66]

2000 ford 7.3 , 126K mi- 14,600 mi on oil, Amsoil ame 15-40. bypass filter.



Iron 37
Chrome 1
Nickel 0
Aluminum 12
Copper 74
Lead 7

Siicone 8
Sodiom 5
Potassiom 2

Molybdenum 2
Boron 1

magnesium 8
Calcium 3411
Phosphorous 1112
Zinc 1298

Fuel %0.3
Soot Water
Vis 100c 12.5
TBN 8.33
OXIDA 39
NITRA 17

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Is that your first UOA on that engine? Trend?

 

[daman]

Any make up oil? nice add pack for sure.

 

[Snowman66]

3 qts of make up oil. Oil level is down some now.

Last year had UOA done at about the same miles 14,000

Iron 37

Alum 5

Copper 40

lead 12

tin 2


More lead, copper and aluminum. But tin is down.

 

[dnewton3]

Well, assuming you've been using the same product for the last two OCIs, we can rule out the whole "premium synthetics cleaning up what dinos left behind", can we not? How many Amsoil OCIs have been consequtive before these two? Are there others?

It's certainly not outside contamination (dirt, water, coolant, etc) causing the issue.

I think we're left with two possible causes:
1) the Amsoil may grossly affecting some of the wear metal readings, or
2) you've got an underlying mechanical issue trying to tell you something

The Pb and Tn and Al are low enough to not warrant concern after 14k miles. And the Fe is moderate. But the Cu is high, and getting higher.

The Cu could be a reactionary issue; many people contend that this type of reading is not "wear", but rather the removal of oxidation layers by the premium synthetics. Perhaps ... But the real problem I always point out with this debate is that when the Cu is so darn high from this purported "reaction", that it can totally mask real problems, or conversely put people into a panic that might not be legitimate. How can you know what it "noise" in a UOA and what is a true problem with numbers like that?

Essentially, you've got about 28k miles of high Cu readings in total, with two UOAs. If it were me, I'd ditch the Amsoil and try a few short OCIs with a quality dino product of your choice.

I am NOT blaming the Amsoil. The intent is to rule out the Amsoil as the contributing factor. The only way to know that for sure is to be able to repeat it's affect on the oil. Remove the Amsoil, run a couple of flush OCIs, then see where the Cu lands. Then, add Amsoil back. If the Amsoil is simply causing a reactionary oxidation removal issue, it will return. If the Amsoil is not the issue, the Cu will not drop with the dino fluids.

If the Cu drops with the dino fluids, then Amsoil is the culprit. That does not mean you cannot or should not use it; it's just a matter of being able to predict your elevated Cu.

If the Cu does not drop with the use of dino fluids, you've got mechanical issues.

 

[daman]

I agree you may want to try a different brand HDEO.

 

[Pablo]

If you look at Amsoil AME over the last few years, there are very few UOA's with high copper. If you look at 7.3 and other Ford engines using AME, I can't find any with high copper.

Point being I doubt it's a reaction/cleaning thing.

Is there something else we need to know, what kind of fuel, what fuel additives, etc???

 

[Steve S]

The AME is a well proven oil. I doubt the oil is the problem.

 

[Steve S]

turbo???

 

[Snowman66]

Started using Amsoil at 80K miles.

Is there copper in the turbo?

Sometimes have used stanadyne in the fuel.

Thanks for the imput guys.

 

[dnewton3]

So you've got somewhere around 45k miles on Amsoil fluids?

I must agree with Pablo and Steve S on this one. I was only trying to get you to rule out Amsoil via your own efforts, but I must admit that is time consuming and may delay a needed fix, in your case.

I'd say that you've got a mechanical issue developing. I cannot imagine Amsoil having a "reaction" this far into your maintenance plan.

Time to start looking for other mechanical sources. Could be the turbo. At least it's the easiest to get to and remove, rather than going into the bottom end.

I'm not that familiar with Stanadyne in it's entirety; perhaps check with them and see if they have any residual Cu in their package (which I doubt, as I've seen several UOAs with Stanadyne use, and Cu was not present in such alarming amounts as yours).

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: Snowman66
Started using Amsoil at 80K miles.

Is there copper in the turbo?

Sometimes have used stanadyne in the fuel.

Thanks for the imput guys.

Turbochargers use copper in the bearings.

Another sign of a failing turbo is oil getting in your intake pipes and intercooler. Pull some boost hoses and see if oil is inside of them.

 

[Snowman66]

The truck is chipped and once in a while I hear the turbo surging. Maybe that's whats happening.

 

[White_Buffalo]

Originally Posted By: artificialist

Turbochargers use copper in the bearings.

Another sign of a failing turbo is oil getting in your intake pipes and intercooler. Pull some boost hoses and see if oil is inside of them.


Good point about the turbo, but on the 7.3L Powerstroke the cranckcase gasses are vented back into the air intake just before the turbo. So unless he has done the CCV mod to reroute the cranckcase gasses he will most definitely have oil in his intercooler tubes/boots.

 

[njohnson]

Is there any chance you are using biodiesel? Do a search on the Internet for copper and biodiesel or check out the link I posted below. Even though it is dealing with home heating oil, the point I would like you to take is the possibility of the biodiesel reacting in your 7.3 if in fact your are running it.

www.biodiesel.org/askben/top10/

The information below comes from the link:

20Q. Can you tell me the problems with B100 and yellow metals? Are there any modifications someone can make in order to run it in your home heating oil system?

20A. Use of tanks or lines made of brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin or zinc may cause high sediment formation and promotes filter clogging and is not recommended with B100 or for that matter generic heating oil as well. This is why additive companies are including metal deactivators in premium heating oil packages to tie up the yellow metals so as not to accelerate corrosive act ivies within the storage tanks which the fuel is stored.

Blends of 5% up to 20% are less of an issue but this is one area that NBB is working on to evaluate the impact of yellow metals with biodiesel. Unless you are prepared to pretty much change your oil lines from copper to stainless, your fuel pump seals to Viton or Teflon I would suggest sticking with B5 as a minimum to a max of 20% biodiesel. There is a comprehensive overview of heating oil and biodiesel at www.biodiesel.org for your review.

 

[wulimaster]

I have the same engine. My AME also sheared down to 12.x. When I switched to HDD 5w30 my viscosity measured about the same as the AME after 25k miles but it only started at 11.7cst. My copper spiked and remained high with the HDD 5w30. I believe one of the more expensive additives was reacting with the copper. Perhaps Amsoil decided to add that additive to the AME.

 

[DieselTech]

Check again at 10K. For UOA to mean squat you first have to trend wear metals. You shouldn't be using 3 qts in 14k unless your pulling 20,000 lbs all the time. Copper in a turbo bearing will not cuase this spike but the copper in the oil cooler certainly will. I would say you have an oil cooler issue rather then needing a reroute kit ( whick I highly suggest on all of the 7.3's )Your turbo would have to be completely coming apart before you would see a drastic spike in Copper.

You have 3 issues
No trend of wear metals
Possible Oil cooler issue
The switch from dino to syns are doing their cleaning job.

Take another sample at 10k and see what it looks like.

 

[Snowman66]

The previous Oci and OUA which was at 14K mi also, showed 40ppm of copper. So it looks like the trend is up. But lead was at 12 before and 7 now.

What would the issue be with the oil cooler?

I do have oil in the IC. One of my chores is to take off and clean it and install one of those CCV mods.

I'v noticed that it seems that the oil shears down to a 12.6 pretty fast, then stays there.

 

[DieselTech]

The oil cooler is copper cored on the 7.3 Over time it will sometimes release some copper into the system. It's just something that happens.

I would clean all of your CAC's and clean the intercooler real well. Dishwasher detergent works well on the IC but a radiator shop can do much better. Install the CCV and see where it goes in 10k. Also when the CAC's are off check the endplay of the turbo. Dont worry about it moving in and out but more so left to right. 126k is not alot of milage for a stock 7.3 turbo unless it's been worked very hard or seen high boost....say above 25lbs or poor filtration

Do you have a chip in the truck?

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: DieselTech
The oil cooler is copper cored on the 7.3 Over time it will sometimes release some copper into the system. It's just something that happens.

I would clean all of your CAC's and clean the intercooler real well. Dishwasher detergent works well on the IC but a radiator shop can do much better. Install the CCV and see where it goes in 10k. Also when the CAC's are off check the endplay of the turbo. Dont worry about it moving in and out but more so left to right. 126k is not alot of milage for a stock 7.3 turbo unless it's been worked very hard or seen high boost....say above 25lbs or poor filtration

Do you have a chip in the truck?


He said he has a chip, and he also says he sometimes hears compressor surge.

So it would make sense if at 126K, his turbo is dead or dying.