OCI of auto syn oils in Twin Cam

[howie333]

07 FLHRI( OCI@ 5K mls.)
I'm presently using the Amsoils 20W-50 for motor. When reviwing several HD websites and Blackstone Labs oil test reports; I only found one test done on a Twin cam FL model, using Mobil 1 15W-50. Apon a 5000+ml OCI,according to Blackstone, that the Mobil 1 15w-50(auto)oil had near no viscosity breakdown, w/a good base number(or most chemical components entact). I've noticed most HD owners submiting tests whom are using a longer(5000+ mile OCI )are using a premium syn moto oil w/little vicosity breakdown. a few tests for HD Motors using syn auto oils are of low mile tests are at similar results. It seems if a syn moto oil is used, to go to 5K OCI, and if ANY (non energy conserving) petroleum oils are used, OCI should be between 2.5-3K mls. I'm not sure about using a similar AUTO syn oil in our Harley Twin Cam motors w/a long OCI. I guess I'de like to see more test results on paper w/ long OCI for M1 15W-50 or similar syn auto oils before I switch out my Amsoil 20w-50. The difference in costs comes to around $5/QT.

Thanks
HR

 

[tomcat27]

your analysis is pretty "spot on". anyone running a HDEO dino in a HD changes it around 2500. without getting religious, I;ve heard alot of feedback from Harley owners that have most of the ills cured by using Amsoil - altho I'm sure M1 is fine. If it were mine, I'd stick with Amsoil. (I better duck now....) I currently work within sight of the HD museum and have been on a couple factory tours.

 

[hate2work]

Have you considered Red Line oil? Many consider it the the best MC oil you can buy~

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1735873&page=1

 

[bonnie john]

what "ills" ???



Originally Posted By: tomcat27
your analysis is pretty "spot on". anyone running a HDEO dino in a HD changes it around 2500. without getting religious, I;ve heard alot of feedback from Harley owners that have most of the ills cured by using Amsoil - altho I'm sure M1 is fine. If it were mine, I'd stick with Amsoil. (I better duck now....) I currently work within sight of the HD museum and have been on a couple factory tours.

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: bonnie john
what "ills" ???



Originally Posted By: tomcat27
your analysis is pretty "spot on". anyone running a HDEO dino in a HD changes it around 2500. without getting religious, I;ve heard alot of feedback from Harley owners that have most of the ills cured by using Amsoil - altho I'm sure M1 is fine. If it were mine, I'd stick with Amsoil. (I better duck now....) I currently work within sight of the HD museum and have been on a couple factory tours.


It's short for illnesses.

 

[EagleFTE]

I think you must have found one of the few UOAs where M1 15W50 "silver cap" did not shear out of grade. Even in HDs where all it does is lube the motor it shears. I'm not a silver cap basher. In fact I use it in a 94 HD that only gets about 1-2K of riding a year as a secondary bike. It does a good job if OCIs are short but the claims that it is in the same league as M1 Vtwin, Red Line, or Amsoil MCV are....well those people should look closer.

In a nut shell silver cap is about 1200 ppm ZDDP (1600 for Vtwin) otherwise the Add Pack is the same. It does not have near the pour point or flash point of M1 Vtwin, and "almost" always shears to a mid 40 grade or worse within 5k miles. I have stated before that I believe the big difference in M1 Auto is the base oil (Super Syn). M1 Vtwin does not use Super Syn. Silver caps out of the bottle numbers and its UOA shearing just don't match the pricey G-IVs and G-Vs.

On the plus side it usually puts up pretty good wear numbers in a UOAs, seems to have great cleanliness, and only costs $4.20 / Qt, and is readily available almost everywhere.

 

[howie333]

I agree; On many Blackstone reports, they stated that the auto syn's sheared to a 40W grade, but that it doesn't affect wear. Does that mean the oil is still in it's variable grade rating even if not stated so in the owners manual,or the motor is tollerable to sheared oil?

HR

 

[bonnie john]

not asking for a definition of the word ills

i'm wandering what's wrong with my fatboy that amsoil will "fix" ???

Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: bonnie john
what "ills" ???



Originally Posted By: tomcat27
your analysis is pretty "spot on". anyone running a HDEO dino in a HD changes it around 2500. without getting religious, I;ve heard alot of feedback from Harley owners that have most of the ills cured by using Amsoil - altho I'm sure M1 is fine. If it were mine, I'd stick with Amsoil. (I better duck now....) I currently work within sight of the HD museum and have been on a couple factory tours.


It's short for illnesses.

 

[EagleFTE]

Howie, I think the HDs are probably ok with a 40 grade in cooler temps (up to 80s and even 90s). Some people run 15W40 HDEO year round although I never have. For whatever reason the M1 15W50 has always been able to put up some good wear numbers, single digit iron for example, even though it can't stay in grade. I have seen some sheared down runs in desert heat that had iron in the mid to high teens though. I consider that a high number for Evos and Twin Cams for a 5K run.

I typically do 5K OCIs on my primary rider which will include the heat of summer environment. For that bike I happen to run Red Line. The AMSOIL you are using as well as M1 Vtwin and Red Line will maintain grade pretty much rock solid throughout a run, oil comes out same as it went in, plus or minus 1 cSt @ 100C. If the extra money is not an issue I would stick with what you are using. Like I said I use M1 15W50 but in an application that has seen a lot of different oils over the last 15 years and only gets ran now on fair weather joy rides for 1-2K per year/OCI.

HOWEVER, in all fairness, there are plenty of people that have used nothing but 15W50 for hundreds of K miles with no problems.

 

[howie333]

I'm also considering to change the Amsoil for my Kawasaki(water cooled) to Rotella 5W-40syn for same reason $$. $5.35/QT. Would Rotella diesel oil be as resistant to shearing and thermal breakdown then a premium syn?
Thanks for reply;
HR...

 

[EagleFTE]

I will defer to the metic guys on the Kaw. Amsoil is a great product to be sure. If you are looking to save some money the Rotella procucts are very highley regarded. In fact that is probably the most used oil for such an application as far as I can tell. The Rotella HDEO products would be an excellent choice if money is the deciding factor. On a Harley I would stick with the OEMs rec. A multi 50 grade for normal use. M1 15W50 or Brad Penn 20W50 Vtwin in the $4.00 range or Amsoil, M1 Vtwin, or Red Line in the $10 range. Not much choice in between those prices. Some will say that some $2.50 dinos will serve you well. I will leave that to them to justify.

My preferences are this:

Dino, I’d change all these at 2500 miles in a Harley

Valvoline 20W50 Vtwin $3.95
Valvoline 20W50 VR-1 $3.95
Bardahl 20W50 Vtwin American Classic ($2.00 if bought by the case during Dennis Kirks clearance. Otherwise may be hard to find. A real steal and killer additive package)
Havoine DS 20W50 $3.00
Kendall GT-1 20W50 $3.00 (have not seen a Harley UOA on this yet but looks good on paper)
Rotella 15W40 $3.00 a little light in grade but people use it and like it. I use it the primary on big twin applications.

Syn GIII/IV go 5000 miles

M1 15W50 Silver cap. $4.20 if bought in the jug. Proven winner over the years even if it does have a lot of unknown, possibly GIII now. Good additive package (1200 ppm ZDDP and lots of calcium). It does shear to a 40 pretty fast but still has very good wear numbers on UOAs.
Brad Penn 20W50 v2 MC oil. $4.50 if bought by the case. Have to find a distributor for this in your area. Real popular with the air cooled Porsche crowd. Gaining popularity in V twins.

Top shelf true syns easily go 5000+ miles

M1 Vtwin 20W50 $10.00, about 1600 ppm ZDDP
Amsoil MCV 20W50 $??? depends
Red Line 20W50 or 20W60 ($9.00 / Qt. by the case mail order) Killer additive package, about equal to M1 Vtwin in ZDDP plus about 500 ppm Moly. A Group V base stock.

Others include Royal Purple Max Cycle 20W50 which has loyal users and bashers but is now readily available at auto parts stores, Motul, and Maxima which are hard to find.

 

[howie333]

Thank you;
What mileage would you change Rotella 5W-40 in a Kawasaki (wat. cooled) motor? If 2500mls OCI in a HD motor, could it be extended w/o it sheering to an unsafe level in the Kaw?

 

[EagleFTE]

I would go over to the Motorcycle UOA section and pour through that for the Kawasaki / Rotella OCI question. I know I've seen some running anywhere from 3k to 10k OCIs on metric bikes with Rotella. But I've also seen wear metal numbers that are what I consider very high from some of those runs. I don't realy know what to expect from a shared sump bike as I have not owned one in a while. Does the Kawasaki in question share oil with tranny and clutch? If so it will probably shear the oil faster.

 

[howie333]

Yea, probably what I've thought. I've also noticed many HD owners using Redline oils, mostly in the primary and trans. Are there specific benefits to Redline oils over other premium oils for engine,trans,or primary?
HR...

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: howie333
Yea, probably what I've thought. I've also noticed many HD owners using Redline oils, mostly in the primary and trans. Are there specific benefits to Redline oils over other premium oils for engine,trans,or primary?
HR...


If we could show conclusive evidence that one is better than the rest this would be a boring forum and we would have nothing to do but read brand X vehicle bashing threads. Red line is a polyol Ester base with a no compromise additive package that relults in a very stable, long lasting end product. No way to really know if it has benefits over others in the real world.

I would say that if you lined up the product lines shown below (just to name a few) you could sleep well at night knowing that lube protection is not an issue. If these won't do the trick there is a problem somewhere. However there are plenty of people who will say you are using a 20 foot ladder for a 10 foot job and over spending. But I've never lost sleep worrying that my oil is too good. And the price over the OCI period is less than I spend on a lot of less important stuff. But there are certainly people who say go to Walmart and buy a 5 Qt jug of Pennzoil YB or Castrol GTX, etc in 20W50 for $3.00 per Qt. and forget about it.

Engine / Transmission / Primary


Red Line 20W50 MC / Heavy Shockproof / MTL
Mobil M1 20W50 Vtwin / best multi vis gear oil / M1 10W40 4T MC
Amsoil 20W50 MCV / best multi vis gear oil / 10W40 JASO compliant oil

The only note I might add is personal opinion that $10 / Qt lube in the primary IS probably overkill as it is not that demanding of an application.

 

[af0h]

Originally Posted By: howie333
Thank you;
What mileage would you change Rotella 5W-40 in a Kawasaki (wat. cooled) motor? If 2500mls OCI in a HD motor, could it be extended w/o it sheering to an unsafe level in the Kaw?


From my own experiences and what i've seen on here, 4-5 K should be no problem. Though I haven't confirmed it in my own tests, the new Rotella T6 is supposed to be somewhat more sheer-stable than the previous formula.

Though I had no problems at all with the previous Rotella 5-40, I still would probably limit OCI's to that mark (4-5 K) just for my own piece of mind.