Why are the Dexron II the most expensive?

[ecco123]

Well, you may have read my previous post when I was trying to decide between Fuchs Titan 5000 Dexron II and Titan 6000 Dexron VI. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...842#Post1713842

Well, asking in several shops about them, and also about the Gulf fully synthetic (also Dexron II), I found out that in every shop that sell either of them, the fully synthetic Dexron II versions are always the most expensive ones, even over the same brand's Dexron VI versions. Also, in both cases, (Gulf and Fuchs) these versions are recommended for heavy duty use.

That leads me to believe they are great ATF's, but then everybody advise to forget about Dexron II and go with Dexron III or VI, so I don't know what to do.

Then in pages like this: http://widman.biz/Seleccion/Reductores/ATF/atf.html I read sentences like "each Dexron generation has improved oxidation and acid-formation resistance, that's why choosing of Dexron II is not recommended in any case"

Or:

"Dexron II is way to viscous at cold temperatures, reducing transmission efficiency":

Then you go to check the -40ºC Brookfield viscosity of three kinds of Gulf oils and this is what you get:

Gulf fully synthetic Dexron II: 7700
Gulf fully synthetic Dexron VI: 11500
Gulf mineral Dexron II: 17900

Or the flashpoint temperature:

Gulf fully synthetic Dexron II: 246 º C
Gulf fully synthetic Dexron VI: 200 º C
Gulf mineral Dexron II: 184 º C

So I still don't understand it. These fully synthetic Dexron II are the most expensive ATF's and (at least in the case of Gulf, Fuchs TDS's are not as detailed) they exceed their Dexron VI and III "brothers", but most of the people I've talked with and the websites I read, told me to stay away from Dexron II.

Link to opieoils, you can see a list of ATF's ordered from the cheapest from the most expensive ones, in page II, you'll see the two most expensive Dexron II:

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-442-atfs.aspx?pagenum=1

 

[xxch4osxx]

Dexron II is a very old spec.

 

[J_Myler]

If I was you I'd use dexron VI. But that's just me. Like the above post said its a very old spec.

 

[hate2work]

Buy the Amsoil and be done with it already.

Why are you even thinking of using a cheaper fluid to use in the desert with a fully loaded rig? That makes zero sense to me

 

[robshelton]

Dex II is mighty old! I haven't seen any in decades! Dex3 is the oldest I'd use, and I'd recommend Dex VI or better if you can justify the increase in cost.

 

[MolaKule]

The Dexron Gulf II Synthetic most likely has a PAO/POE base fluid. A reason for the higher cost is the base fluid AND the additive package. The demand for the addtive package is low and thus is more expensive.

I think the Gulf Dexron VI probably has a GroupII+ + Group III base oil since the BV is relatively high, compared to Redline D6 which has a BV of 4500 cP.

 

[ecco123]

I'd like to be able to use Amsoil, Mobil 1, Castrol or Transynd ATF... But they are not available in Spain (Castrol is but not the synthetic). And bringing 15 liters of any of them would cost me about 350 USD after shipping and customs.

The only fully synthetic I can source here are the Gulf and Fuchs Dexron II.

Anyway, you say cheap?. They cost 20% more than Amsoil!.

I could use Gulf Dexron VI, but it has a flashpoint of 200 º C, while Gulf Dexron II has it at 247 º C. That's important when driving at high temperatures.

There must be something wrong with them anyway as they are Dexron II, but I can't se why.

 

[hate2work]

Originally Posted By: ecco123


I already contacted the transmission guy, and he told me again to use a fully synthetic Dexron III and recommended Amsoil (of course, he sells Amsoil and knows is the only oil available here that clearly meets those two requirements).

The problem is that Amsoil is going to cost me three times as much as Fuchs, despite in this website Fuchs is quite dearer:


That quote is from your first thread, but now you're saying that you can't get Amsoil? And that now the Amsoil is cheaper? I'm confused.

Anyway, I hope you get it straightened out. Let us know what you ended up with.

 

[ecco123]

I understand you are confused, I just didn't explain myself correctly. I'm sorry.

In opieoil.co.uk, 1 US quart of Amsoil, that's about a liter, costs 14.82 GBP, about 16.45 EURO = 23.85 USD. I'd have to add the shipping costs in my case.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-1052-amsoil-synthetic-automatic-transmission-fluid-atf.aspx

In the same shop, 1 liter of Fuchs Titan 5000 Dexron II costs 18 GBP, about 19.98 EURO = 28.97 USD. That's 30.68 USD per quart!!.

Well, that's about the same price I can get Fuchs in Spain, a bit cheaper if I buy a 20 liters can.

This guy I told you is the only one that sells Amsoil here and he's asking 18 € per quart, even dearer than opieoils. That's why I say I can't get Amsoil. I can get it but at that crazy price I'd rather import it form the USA.

Now, as I said in the other post, I found a wholesale industrial Fuchs dealer that can get me the Titan 5000 for 7.5 EURO per liter if I buy the 20 liters can. That's a bit of a saving compared with the 19.98 EURO per liter from opieoils.


I can also get great prices in Gulf, as they are also into the heavy industries bussiness. (One of my best friends works for Mercedes Benz heavy machinery, that's why I can get those prices).

A pity I can't do the same with Amsoil. I also found a distribution for Redline that I didn't know was available in Spain. It's a racing shop, so I expect crazy prices like the above ones, but I will still try.


Sorry for messing around too much guys but it's just not fair to pay 270 EUROS (391,5 USD) for 15 liters of ATF (the capacity of my transmission).

 

[ecco123]

By the way, I'd choose Fuchs or Gulf Dexron VI, but I read this:

Originally Posted By: gomes512
I heard that some older Toyota auto's don't like Dex VI, not sure if there is any truth to that?

 

[ecco123]

Another one for the "super Dexron II club".

I just got a price list from Valvoline Europe. They got a range of four ATF's, and, wonder which one is the dearest?. Yes, the fully synthetic Dexron II. The dealer also recommends it as their highest performance ATF.

http://www.valvolineeurope.com/uploadedFiles/1733.pdf

It's really strange, isn't it?.

 

[Kestas]

Depends on supply and demand (and distribution). Dex II is not a popular fluid. Nobody wants it taking up valuable shelf space in their store, nor is much of it produced. Hence the high price for something that has so-so performance.

Kinda like buying a carburator for a 53 Corvette.

 

[wapacz]

what I can't figure out is how you will get this transmission to 200c. I would think you would count a transmission at 100c being overheated or really really close to it.

 

[ecco123]

Of course I won't take the transmission to 200ºC (I hope so), but I figure out that the higher the flashpoint, the better the resistance at higher temperatures.

In fact Redline makes an ATF called high temp ATF that has a flash point of 238ºC.

For heavily-loaded vehicles, allowing operation at up to 70°F higher while maintain thicker viscosity than traditional ATFs

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=54&pcid=9

I will ring the redline dealer tomorrow, I hope I can get some redline at reasonable price, but I'm afraid they will have the same crazy prices as the others.

By the way. I don't think 100ºC is overheating. Toyota standard transmission overheating light turns on at 150ºC.

My friend had it a couple of times, then replaced the ATF. The red had turned into orange, but not toasted. The transmission goes on without problems after two years.

Anyway, I agree that better stay under those 100ºC. My oil turned a bit orange too after reaching about 130ºC.

 

[ecco123]

I got a quote from Redline, and the price is crazy as expected: 22 EUROS per liter (32 USD).

I got a response from Fuchs regarding the Titan 5000 Dexron II:

Titan ATF 6000SL is a full synthetic Dexron V1 product for extended drain use in new generation GM autos.


Titan ATF 5000SL is a top quality full synthetic Dexron IIE, it has been used in heavy duty autos operating under severe conditions. In the UK we have used it as a "problem solver", it is known to be very durable, it is suitable for high temperature operation and is very strong on oxidation stability. The Dexron 11E performance level is rather misleading and reflects the fact that Dexron IIE was the current performance level when ATF 5000SL was developed rather than any shortfall in performance.

I think Titan ATF 5000SL is probably the best option for your purposes. I do not think it's "older" profile would be any disadvantage in your cars and it is very good in high temperature conditions.

How do you feel about trying both ?, we would be happy to examine any oil samples after use and report back.