Redline 15w40 14000kms 05 Cummins

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This is the UOA for my 05 Dodge 3500, oil has 14000kms half pulling about 10000lbs. The oil condition was fine but they noted soot was elevated due to probably a restricted air filter, well I checked it and sure enough it was pretty filthy, it looks like the oil has thickened a little too, other than that no action required according to the lab. Opinions? Gonna try 5w40 this winter, if I avoid the bad air filter hopefully 20000kms next time.

Fe 32
Cr 1
Ni 0
Si 10
Al 6
Pb 3
Sn 0
Cu 7
Na 4
K 12
Ag 1
Mo 5
Mg 26
Zn 1382
Ca 2684
Ba 0
P 1160

ST 46
OXI 132
NIT 10
SUL 125
W N
A N
F N
V100 16.4
V40 112.2
TAN 2.74
TBN 10.1
 
32ppm Fe seems a bit high, for what equates to 8.7k miles. I realize that there is some heavy towing involved, but still, that seems a bit high. The other wear metals don't seem too bad. The silicon is not high, but not low either; could be attributed to the air filter issue. And yes, it got thicker as well.

Do you have other UOAs for comparison from this same vehicle? What other fluids might have you tried?

Your area gets pretty darn cold in the winter, so I can see the desire for synthetics at that time of year. However, you might consider dino 15w-40 in the summer; there are many UOAs showing (what I would consider to be) better results from Delo and VPB, in particular.

In no way is this a bad UOA, but it's not stellar, either. And for the cost of RL, I wonder if you're not getting your money's worth?
 
This is the first UOA I've done on the truck and the second run of Redline, the truck has a Amsoil bypass filter and stock power levels, filters are all Cummins. I've used Delo before and I agree it is a great product, but Im gonna let this Redline have a couple more chances before I move on to another product. Really the trucks got 120000kms on regular oil so maybe the RL is doing some cleaning, if so I expect a trend down over the next couple OCIs, if not I might switch, to what I dont know, especially in the winter? I got a couple questions, first should I run this oil out to 20000kms and second how much soot is 46? 46ppm? Its hard to gauge just how much soot is in the oil, what kinda numbers would be good? Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: TheForeman
I've used Delo before and I agree it is a great product, but Im gonna let this Redline have a couple more chances before I move on to another product.


Smart, much better reasoned than a knee jerk reaction to a few ppm of wear metals, especially after the "shock" of a drastic change in oil chemistry.
 
I completely agree on running any chosen fluid out for several UOA cycles, if you want a true understanding of where you're at. This is often missed by many BITOGers, however since it's not the "normal" mode of most people here, we tend to generalize upon the "try it and move on" crowd. I applaud your desire to stick with one product for several cycles before making a determination.

OTOH, 32ppm of Fe is high for 8.7k miles, and there is no other way to look at it; regardless if it's your 1st UOA with RL or your 10th.

Also, if you're running an Amsoil BP system, I'm a bit shocked at such soot levels. Many times the argument for the use of a bypass system is the claimed cleanliness of the oil; yet you have high soot and increasing viscosity, indicating something is affecting the oil, and yet not being controlled, so the insolubles are growing with some haste.

Keep us informed of the progress as you transition through successvie UOAs, please.
 
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Dnewton3, I agree that the soot should be lower with a bypass filter but all that towing was done with a really plugged filter and I had no idea cause that stupid filter minder was saying everything was allright! I guess it bottomed out at the last bit of green before the red! A 30' enclosed trailer takes alittle bit to run down the highway so hopefully the soot will take a huge nosedive next oci, OTT I hear Smarty (chip) will reduce the levels of soot due to advancing the timing, soooo Ill keep an eye on it for y'all. By the way, whats that soot number mean, 46? ANYBODY? You guys ROCK! Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: TheForeman
By the way, whats that soot number mean, 46? ANYBODY? You guys ROCK! Thanks


Contact the analysis place, they should quickly tell you. And let us know. If it's 4.6% that's extremely high for only 8700 miles. If it's 0.46% that is about what I'd expect for towing with a clogged air filter and oil rated for CH4 or CI4 can easily handle a lot more soot than that. 4.6% would be at the upper limit for CH4 and not too far from the limit for CI4+.
It can't be 46 ppm, that's infinitesimally low, the oil would still look new.

Charlie
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
OTOH, 32ppm of Fe is high for 8.7k miles, and there is no other way to look at it; regardless if it's your 1st UOA with RL or your 10th.


Elevated Fe and/or Pb isn't uncommon with RedLine for the first few OCIs, especially if it's had a number of miles on conventional oils. It's just seems to be the nature of the highly polar POE base stock and usually settles off after a few oil change intervals.

I wouldn't make a switch based on this UOA, I'd go a couple more oil changes before condemning the oil.

Originally Posted By: Roy Howell of RedLine
Unfortunately, oil analysis is not very good at distinguishing wear between different formulations. Emission spectroscopy has a particle size limit of 3 to 5 microns, which means that particles larger will not be detected. Unfortunately, most serious wear issues generate wear particles in the range of 5 - 15 microns. Oil analysis only measures about 15-20% of the particles in the oil, and changing form one formulation to another is likely to change the particle size profile. Usually formulations with more antiwear additive will more aggressively react with the metal surface and when rubbing occurs will produce smaller particles. Generally, more antiwear additives will give greater iron spectrochemical numbers, even though the total iron can be lower. There are other techniques such as ferrography, which looks at the wear particles under a microscope, but now we are talking about analysis many times more expensive than spectrochemical analysis. The oils with the better spectrochemical numbers will be much less chemically active on the metal surface, so they will be less able to handle more severe loads. There is always a trade-off between chemical wear and adhesive wear. Chemical wear is the very small particles and soluble metals which is identified in the spectrochemical analysis, while adhesive wear is many orders of magnitude greater than the chemical wear, but much is not identified in spectrochemical analysis. But if you were using spectrochemical analysis as a maintenance tool and started seeing a deviation over the baseline, then you would know something was wrong.

It is very difficult for an individual to be able to look at numbers which will conclusively determine the best formulation, you simply have to rely on the reputation of the marketer and whether you trust the marketer's technical expertise. With most of our formulations, we rely on major additive manufacturers to do the basic API sequence testing to determine criteria such as antiwear, dispersancy, cleanliness, etc. All the oil companies rely on the additive manufacturers to do the engine test work. We will take their basic package and add additional antiwear, friction modifiers, oxidation inhibitors or whatever can be safely modified to provide superior performance. Some of the bench tests such as 4-Ball can be useful, but a blind adherance to optimize with one single test will result a less-than-optimum performing lubricant. There are always trade-offs in engine oils, and we try to enhance antiwear and friction reduction at higher temperatures and loads, while trying to maintain performance at lower and normal loads and temperatures.

Regards,

Roy


Thanks buster!
 
Sweet info from RedLine Ben99GT! Ya I do think that regardless of the average numbers Im gonna get every UOA, whether its 12ppm FE or 50ppm Fe its at 500,000 miles when U do the teardown and mike everything then U see the difference. I really do believe RL is gonna make a difference over the long haul, and the only way to find out is to try it.
 
While I agree with some of the RL comments from the quote, let's not just bow out of ignorance and presume all is as he (Roy, the RL rep) states.

I do agree that different chemistry packages affect the host equipment differently; always been a fan of multiple UOAs for trending and ranges. However, some of the things he (Roy) states is just plain wrong, or misleading.

For example, UOAs based upon spectrometry are generally reliable from 1-5um, not 3-5um as he states. (He is basically stealing away 50% of the applicable range in that one statement). A range of 3-5 um would be so small that it would be nearly worthless to view the results. Further, while I do agree that spectrometry is limited to around 5um on the upper end, other methods can only tell you size, but not composition of the wear metals. (For example, particle count analysis can show you size ranges and contamination (occurrence) rates, but not what the actual metals are; that's why many look at gas spectrometry).

Also, he states that UOAs only see 15-20% of the total wear? So, if there is 32ppm of Fe (such as the OPs UOA) in a claimed 3-5um range (all according to Roy's claim of spectrometry limits), then can we presume that there are 192ppm more Fe floating around, that is in the "non-visible" range? I call a bovine-poo on that! I think what we need to analyze is the difference between what is known to exist, versus what is possible to exist. Did he mean that a UOA can only see 15-20% of the "typical" contamination range? If so, that would mean that the "normal" size range of particles would be only 15um. How did I come up with that? His range (3-5um, inclusive = 3um) multiplied by a factor of 5 (20% x 5 = 100%). So I'm to believe that a particle count analysis would only discover a total size range of 15um? Wrong! Any way I look at it, his numbers don't work out.

Also, and perhaps it's just a mistake on his part, but I take exception to his comment about "... while adhesive wear is many orders of magnitude greater than the chemical wear, ..." This indicates that he has no comprehension of math. One "order of magnitude" is a factor of 10 (ten); so if he states the spectral analysis is effective in a range of 3-5um, and you multiply by "many orders of magnitude" to infer the size of the "adhesion wear", that would make the particles 3000-5000um or larger, floating around from "adhesion wear"? I hardly think so! Even ONE order of magnitude would present particles 30-50um in size; something that large would be caught by the main full-flow filter the first time around. I believe what he's trying to state is that some wear is seen with spectrometry (I agree) and some wear is seen with particle count analysis (I agree). But you cannot use one to supplant the other. They can be complimentary in nature, but not interchangeable in nature.

UOAs show us both the occurence rate (how much) and composition (what type), but in an admittedly narrow range (1-5um). PCs show us larger particle existence for various sizes, but nothing about where they came from. Small particles happen all the time; large ones happen infrequently, and in fact, the larger they are, the much less frequent they are. That is the realistic view of both UOAs and PCs. In essence, we are using UOAs to view trends BEFORE they become catastrophic events! If you have high "chemical wear", how in the world can you seperate out the "noise" from the truly terrible? Here's an example of how this can be misleading. Suppose you run "normal" oil and average 10ppm of Fe for several successive UOAs. Suddenly, you jump up 10ppm to a total of 20 ppm on your next UOA; you just experienced a 100% increase, and you'd have cause for concern. But if you were typically in a "high chemistry wear" pattern using RL oil, and have 35ppm as "normal", and then you jumped up 10ppm from some "event", you would only see that as a 35% increase, and possibly pay little heed to it. See how the concept of using "high chemical wear" as a base line can be misleading?

I also take issue with his comment of "soluble metals"; the traditional metals we look for in UOAs (Fe, Cu, Al, Pb, Cr, etc) are NOT soluble in the applications we are used to looking at. I guess it's a technical point, and maybe he was just in a hurry and misstated his position, but these are not dissolved into the host fluid. They are broken down into various sizes and co-exist with the fluid (oil), but they don't dissolve into the fluid. If I drop a small pebble of granite (a mineral) into a glass of water, it does not become soluble; it does not dissolve. Just because we can't see the Fe, Cu, Al, etc, does not mean they became "soluble" and dissolved; they are co-existing in a range not visible to the naked eye.

Another question I would pose is this, based upon his comments. Presuming that his position is accepted (small sized chemical wear particles are prominent because of higher anti-wear additives in "premium" oils), then would you ever see a trend downward in Fe wear in a UOA when using the RL? Conceptually, according to his theorem, you would not. As long as the anti-wear package was robust, and you continued to use said product for successive OCIs, you'd ALWAYS have high Fe, would you not? But that's not the case. Typically, UOAs will settle to a "normal" state over time, presuming you continue the consistent use of any particular chosen fluid. So while I understand what he's stating, and agree with it to some portion, I think he's being a bit short on logic. One of two things must happen: a) high initial wear from chemistry changes will occur but drop off with normalization, or b) high chemistry wear will occur indefinitely due to his claim of higher "anti-wear" chemistry. This seems counter-intuitive to utter continued high wear in a UOA and "anti-wear" all in the same breath.

Basically, he's trying to point out that there is "small" and "big" wear, and that RL products trade off having more small "chemical" wear for less large "adhesion" wear. I guess I agree with that to some point, but not as a whole explanation. I do believe that small wear comes from chemistry, but it also comes from small abrasion, such as start up, where we mostly would agree that is likely the origin of much wear. Further, large wear can not only come from adhesion, but also from (what I will call) catastrophic events, such as large particles breaking out from mechanical issues, poor design or manufacturing effects, etc.

Roy also makes this statement "... you simply have to rely on the reputation of the marketer and whether you trust the marketer's technical expertise." So are we to believe that RL is the only lube OEM that is worth listening to? As if Mobil, Shell, Chevron, etc., have nothing good to say, and all the UOAs from those products are just bogus? I wonder, just what is Roy's experience? Is he a tribologist? A chemical engineer? A sales and marketing guy? Without being rude, I have to question his credentials; not that I'm never wrong (far from it) but he makes several misleading or flat wrong statements that are otherwise paramount to his position. To mis-spell words or make typo's is normal (I certainly do), but my objections to some of his details are factually based in logic, and I don't agree with some of his conclusions. On the surface, his reply seems laudable, but when you dig into the meat of it, it falls apart.

Traditional UOA analysis is very sound; it's used all the time, with good reason. It certainly is NOT a total view of lube or equipment health, but it is the best tool we have for a low-cost, easily applied view of the wear happening in an engine, and the host oil's ability to deal with the operating environment.

The OP has 32ppm in 8.7k miles. That's high. And if it's still that high after a few more OCI/UOA cycles, I'd say RL is likely not doing the job Roy would like for us to believe that it is doing.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Elevated Fe and/or Pb isn't uncommon with RedLine for the first few OCIs, especially if it's had a number of miles on conventional oils. It's just seems to be the nature of the highly polar POE base stock and usually settles off after a few oil change intervals.

I like how Rl_RS4 stated this reaction for RenLube Biosyn (need to find that quote) basically the oil is reacting with the oxidation layer and "scavaging" the old chemistry and then laying down its new chemistry. Those are all my words not his.

One can imagine this happening when we look at these figures:

sirfacecompetition.jpg

zddpcopy.jpg


For my use of Redline 5W40 in the VW 2.0 FSI (5w40 has the same additive pack as 15W40), the iron wear flatlined very quickly, but that was for an almost new car so there was only the factory fill "chemistry" to remove (I would guess it would be much different for a higher mileage car). All runs shown here as red dots:
VAG2lFSIUOAdatabase16ppmfegraphcopy.jpg
 
fyi- If your soot levels are actually at 4.6% be sure to check your bypass to ensure that it is plumbed correctly and is getting sufficient flow. Soot agglomeration definitely will thicken your sump quickly and cause abrasive iron wear to shoot up fast. If this bypass element had just been changed I would be very concerned at seeing a number >2% even with your air filter issue. Also are you running any sort of tuner?
 
Nice info Saaber1, sweet. Pickled, I know for sure that the filter is realatively new and has good flow (it returns through the oil cap) and I currently have no tuner installed but am planning on buying one soon only to advance the timing for fuel mileage, there's no need for more power. DNewton3, wow, yes info dually noted. I keep forgeting to phone the lab about the soot number but maybe they'll be open tomorrow, so Ill see.
 
Just phoned the lab and yes the soot number means 0.46% so I guess thats a good thing. The guy at the lab (Finning/Cat) was very nice and we chatted for a good 15 minutes, he seemed fairly up to date and when I mentioned I posted @ Bob The Oil Guy he was aware of the site and said he had browsed around from time to time! Hard to resist, EH!
 
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