Does anybody know the correct torque for a 1996 Ford F53 chassis motorhome wheel lug nut torque? These are ten lug wheels. Thanks in advance.
wheel lug nut torque
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Thank you Pablo. Just what I was looking for. I will go on the low side since I always lube the threads and contact areas, and the specs. are always for dry threads. Thanks.
DON'T ever lube lug nut or stud threads ! You will lose a wheel.
IF they are dirty, use a wire brush to clean them up (studs).
IF they are dirty, use a wire brush to clean them up (studs).
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
DON'T ever lube lug nut or stud threads ! You will lose a wheel.
IF they are dirty, use a wire brush to clean them up (studs).
I have to agree - if the mfr specs torque for dry threads, it is for a reason.
I have seen plenty of people use grease on their wheel studs, and can't say I've ever seen a problem from it. For my stuff, though, I'm not taking a chance.
DON'T ever lube lug nut or stud threads ! You will lose a wheel.
IF they are dirty, use a wire brush to clean them up (studs).
I have to agree - if the mfr specs torque for dry threads, it is for a reason.
I have seen plenty of people use grease on their wheel studs, and can't say I've ever seen a problem from it. For my stuff, though, I'm not taking a chance.
Sorry, I disagree. When involved in off road racing years ago, I lubed the wheel lugs and was challanged by the other mechanics. We took our disagrement to a racing engineer and he stated lubrication of the threads has nothing to do with wheel retention, it was strictly a matter of clamp force. I have been lubing all my wheel lugs for probably 20 years and never had one come loose on their own. Never had one frozen or seized either. I also generally under torque them a little, because a wet thread at 140 lbs will provide the same clamp force as a dry thread at a higher torque.
another Todd - Actually, most wheel nuts are supposed to be put on dry, and the torque is spec'd for that.
But I lube my own - always. I see problems in the shop from not being able to get things off, not lugs loosening from being lubed.
I use a little less torque.
But I lube my own - always. I see problems in the shop from not being able to get things off, not lugs loosening from being lubed.
I use a little less torque.
Well, my neighbor, an electrical engineer, lubed his lug studs and torqued them. A week later, driving to work he heard a terrible noise, stopped his car, thought his transmission was going bad. Had the car towed. HIS LUGS NUTS WERE LOOSE !
To say "never had" means that your wheels haven't come off, your studs haven't broken, and so on. It's hard to argue with "lack of failure", but I wouldn't call it "success".
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases. Of course, any given case will be different, depending on the lubricant used, the thread pitch, and so on. But, you could be using up nearly all your safety margin and not know it. I hope your luck holds.
I'll stick with clean, dry threads. That's what the torque specs were made for and, as you say, I've never had any problems.
To say "never had" means that your wheels haven't come off, your studs haven't broken, and so on. It's hard to argue with "lack of failure", but I wouldn't call it "success".
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases. Of course, any given case will be different, depending on the lubricant used, the thread pitch, and so on. But, you could be using up nearly all your safety margin and not know it. I hope your luck holds.
I'll stick with clean, dry threads. That's what the torque specs were made for and, as you say, I've never had any problems.
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Here in the salty North, I know I applied excessive torque getting lug nuts loose. I know what it feels like what somthing is close to twisting off. Solution? A squirt of oil. In more recent years a dab of antisieze and torque to 80% of spec. Problems? Ziltch.
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases. Of course, any given case will be different, depending on the lubricant used, the thread pitch, and so on.
I've heard numbers like 25% and 50% for that; never anything like 500%, though I suppose it's possible with the right pitch. Fasteners are often torqued to 80% of yield stress, so even 25% extra may cause some plastic deformation.
For wheels, I only use anti-seize in situations where the nut no longer turns easily by hand.
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases. Of course, any given case will be different, depending on the lubricant used, the thread pitch, and so on.
I've heard numbers like 25% and 50% for that; never anything like 500%, though I suppose it's possible with the right pitch. Fasteners are often torqued to 80% of yield stress, so even 25% extra may cause some plastic deformation.
For wheels, I only use anti-seize in situations where the nut no longer turns easily by hand.
100lb/ft is usually a good bet.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
I work on Submarines. If you apply a lube to a nut, lug, stud, you change the torque value. It is all based off the type of material, the size of the fastener and lube. Of course your car is not a Submarine. 99% of the time your car is the more dangerous choice for transportation.
If the spec says DRY. Do it dry. I could tell you what to torque it to if you gave me lube specs, the metal you are torquing, size of the fastener and the original torque. That sounds pretty anal, usually I am not like that.
There is some guy at the Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Toyota, Honda, etc etc, sitting in a room figuring out torque specs...daily.
If the spec says DRY. Do it dry. I could tell you what to torque it to if you gave me lube specs, the metal you are torquing, size of the fastener and the original torque. That sounds pretty anal, usually I am not like that.
There is some guy at the Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Toyota, Honda, etc etc, sitting in a room figuring out torque specs...daily.
Kestas
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Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases.
I've been involved in lug nut torques studies. I've even been present when they conducted these studies. Light oil will NOT result in 5X the tensile stress.
In fact, we specify to our heavy truck clients that they must use TWO DROPS of oil on the wheel stud before torqueing to specification.
Your colleague is overly dramatic.
My engineer colleague stated that their research showed an increase in the tensile stress in the bolt by a factor of more than FIVE as a result of lubricating the threads with light oil compared to clean dry threads, using the same tightening torque in both cases.
I've been involved in lug nut torques studies. I've even been present when they conducted these studies. Light oil will NOT result in 5X the tensile stress.
In fact, we specify to our heavy truck clients that they must use TWO DROPS of oil on the wheel stud before torqueing to specification.
Your colleague is overly dramatic.
My problem is having the wheels not come off when I wanted them to. So, 25 yrs ago, pre- BITOG,, I took matters into my own hands. The mating faces of the wheel and the hub are chassis lubed to prevent an electrolytic bond from forming. I also grease the lug bolts. I tighten the lugs down in a star pattern using 3 stages. I use the OEM lugwrench, so I can change a flat with the car's tools. Since I started doing this, I can change tires easily. I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2024
Originally Posted By: andyd
I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
Now that I can agree with.
I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
Now that I can agree with.
Originally Posted By: andyd
My problem is having the wheels not come off when I wanted them to. So, 25 yrs ago, pre- BITOG,, I took matters into my own hands. The mating faces of the wheel and the hub are chassis lubed to prevent an electrolytic bond from forming. I also grease the lug bolts. I tighten the lugs down in a star pattern using 3 stages. I use the OEM lugwrench, so I can change a flat with the car's tools. Since I started doing this, I can change tires easily. I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
+1 About when I started squirting oil on the studs.
My problem is having the wheels not come off when I wanted them to. So, 25 yrs ago, pre- BITOG,, I took matters into my own hands. The mating faces of the wheel and the hub are chassis lubed to prevent an electrolytic bond from forming. I also grease the lug bolts. I tighten the lugs down in a star pattern using 3 stages. I use the OEM lugwrench, so I can change a flat with the car's tools. Since I started doing this, I can change tires easily. I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
+1 About when I started squirting oil on the studs.
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Originally Posted By: andyd
I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
Now that I can agree with.
+1. I've met several. Understanding theory and applying your understanding to reality are two different things. I've met LOTS of people who could do one or the other... but not both.
And engineer's word is not law. [censored], you'll find conflicting information from credentialed engineers in just about any technical area if you look for it... in the end, it's still YOUR judgment call as to who you believe and why. And lest ya'll think that I'm just a bitter and ignorant hick, I'm just over 2 semesters' worth of classes from having my own engineering degree. So I'm just bitter... not ignorant.
I've been working on trucks and heavy equipment for [censored] near 15 years now. I've never ONCE seen a lug nut break or twist off due to lube. That's not to say that it can't happen... only that it isn't common. I've seen FAR more problems with rusted & seized lug nuts over the years. But the most common cause of lug nut/stud failure is just using an impact and hammering the [censored] out of it. If you're going to the trouble of using a torque wrench, and you use some reasonable judgement, chances are good that you won't have a problem.
When lug nuts and studs are new, they have nice uniform coatings... you can torque them dry and reliably assume that they'll perform as designed. But over the years, coatings wear off and/or oxidize, bolts rust, threads gall... any number of things can happen. And if you just blindly put those nuts on dry 'cause that's what "the book" says to do- then you're gonna have problems. Whereas if you clean up the threads, apply the lubricant of your choice, and torque to a reasonable value (say, 90% of 'dry' torque), then you won't have a problem.
Personally, on customers' equipment, I generally don't lube threads. If the stuff if rusty & crusty, I clean and lube as I see fit. Then depending on the application, I might put them on with an impact, or I might torque them. It's not perfect, and I don't care... as long as it doesn't come back, it isn't my problem.
On my own vehicles, I lube lug studs with antiseize and torque to 90% of spec. if I'm feeling my OCD that day... or I just tighten by feel otherwise. No problems to report.
Originally Posted By: andyd
I know several engineers that I wouldn't trust with a wrench, BTW
Now that I can agree with.
+1. I've met several. Understanding theory and applying your understanding to reality are two different things. I've met LOTS of people who could do one or the other... but not both.
And engineer's word is not law. [censored], you'll find conflicting information from credentialed engineers in just about any technical area if you look for it... in the end, it's still YOUR judgment call as to who you believe and why. And lest ya'll think that I'm just a bitter and ignorant hick, I'm just over 2 semesters' worth of classes from having my own engineering degree. So I'm just bitter... not ignorant.
I've been working on trucks and heavy equipment for [censored] near 15 years now. I've never ONCE seen a lug nut break or twist off due to lube. That's not to say that it can't happen... only that it isn't common. I've seen FAR more problems with rusted & seized lug nuts over the years. But the most common cause of lug nut/stud failure is just using an impact and hammering the [censored] out of it. If you're going to the trouble of using a torque wrench, and you use some reasonable judgement, chances are good that you won't have a problem.
When lug nuts and studs are new, they have nice uniform coatings... you can torque them dry and reliably assume that they'll perform as designed. But over the years, coatings wear off and/or oxidize, bolts rust, threads gall... any number of things can happen. And if you just blindly put those nuts on dry 'cause that's what "the book" says to do- then you're gonna have problems. Whereas if you clean up the threads, apply the lubricant of your choice, and torque to a reasonable value (say, 90% of 'dry' torque), then you won't have a problem.
Personally, on customers' equipment, I generally don't lube threads. If the stuff if rusty & crusty, I clean and lube as I see fit. Then depending on the application, I might put them on with an impact, or I might torque them. It's not perfect, and I don't care... as long as it doesn't come back, it isn't my problem.
On my own vehicles, I lube lug studs with antiseize and torque to 90% of spec. if I'm feeling my OCD that day... or I just tighten by feel otherwise. No problems to report.
Originally Posted By: rudolphna
100lb/ft is usually a good bet.
????
The recommended torque is much higher than that.
100lb/ft is usually a good bet.
????
The recommended torque is much higher than that.
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
Well, my neighbor, an electrical engineer, lubed his lug studs and torqued them. A week later, driving to work he heard a terrible noise, stopped his car, thought his transmission was going bad. Had the car towed. HIS LUGS NUTS WERE LOOSE !
I don't know exactly what vette0wner's engineer buddy did... but I'm pretty confident that it was something STUPID... something not spelled out in that anecdote.
I have my own story about stupid engineers and lug nuts. When I was 18 year old... young and dumb, didn't know [censored]... I worked in a small-scale factory that manufactured industrial equipment mounted on trailer skids- in the range of about 4,000 to 12,000 pounds, depending on the setup. These skids were set up to use standard trailer axles and hitches, and one of my jobs was to bolt the wheels onto the hubs. Now, as some of you will know, lug nuts generally don't use an interference thread... you know, 'cause wheels have to come off at some point, and you don't want to damage the stud threads. But the engineers at this company were kinda paranoid about wheels falling off these trailer units- it had happened in the past (can't say why, as I wasn't there). They were afraid that the lug nuts would back off; their solution was to use a crimped lug nut- i.e. an interference thread. Nobody made one for this application (wonder why?), so these clowns built a jig that we could use in the 30-ton press to crimp our own. Well, you take a poorly designed crimping tool, use it on nuts that were never designed to be crimped, and make some $7/hr. shop-monkey run the press... what do you THINK is going to happen? The results were not uniform. So when installing these wheels, I noted that lots of these lug nuts were [censored] hard to turn. I measured it with a torque wrench. It was taking up to 80 ft-lbs to turn the lug nut... while the spec was 120 ft-lbs or thereabouts. I pointed this out to TWO engineers; it was never addressed. A few months later, TWO wheels came off a 12,000-pound trailer unit (thankfully, not one that I'd worked on). All eight lug studs had snapped on each hub.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happened here... but it gets better. The chief engineer (not one of the two that I'd discussed the lug nut problem with) addressed this problem by specifying different wheels. He didn't address the lug nut issue (I was pretty disgusted by then and didn't bother to point out the obvious). I actually asked him WHY he'd specified different wheels (I expect the engineers on this forum to see what's wrong with this statement right away... while ya'll mere mortals won't see what I'm getting at):
He said that the new wheels had a greater surface area contacting the hub, and therefore would have more friction against the hub.
I sincerely hope that some of ya'll will get a laugh out of this.
Now that long and only marginally interesting story is to demonstrate this: engineers make mistakes. They are OFTEN wrong. Don't even get me started on warranty campaigns that I've dealt with from assorted diesel engine & heave equipment manufacturers over the years.
So appeal to authority doesn't hold much water for me when it comes to technical discussions. Or really ANY discussion.
Well, my neighbor, an electrical engineer, lubed his lug studs and torqued them. A week later, driving to work he heard a terrible noise, stopped his car, thought his transmission was going bad. Had the car towed. HIS LUGS NUTS WERE LOOSE !
I don't know exactly what vette0wner's engineer buddy did... but I'm pretty confident that it was something STUPID... something not spelled out in that anecdote.
I have my own story about stupid engineers and lug nuts. When I was 18 year old... young and dumb, didn't know [censored]... I worked in a small-scale factory that manufactured industrial equipment mounted on trailer skids- in the range of about 4,000 to 12,000 pounds, depending on the setup. These skids were set up to use standard trailer axles and hitches, and one of my jobs was to bolt the wheels onto the hubs. Now, as some of you will know, lug nuts generally don't use an interference thread... you know, 'cause wheels have to come off at some point, and you don't want to damage the stud threads. But the engineers at this company were kinda paranoid about wheels falling off these trailer units- it had happened in the past (can't say why, as I wasn't there). They were afraid that the lug nuts would back off; their solution was to use a crimped lug nut- i.e. an interference thread. Nobody made one for this application (wonder why?), so these clowns built a jig that we could use in the 30-ton press to crimp our own. Well, you take a poorly designed crimping tool, use it on nuts that were never designed to be crimped, and make some $7/hr. shop-monkey run the press... what do you THINK is going to happen? The results were not uniform. So when installing these wheels, I noted that lots of these lug nuts were [censored] hard to turn. I measured it with a torque wrench. It was taking up to 80 ft-lbs to turn the lug nut... while the spec was 120 ft-lbs or thereabouts. I pointed this out to TWO engineers; it was never addressed. A few months later, TWO wheels came off a 12,000-pound trailer unit (thankfully, not one that I'd worked on). All eight lug studs had snapped on each hub.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happened here... but it gets better. The chief engineer (not one of the two that I'd discussed the lug nut problem with) addressed this problem by specifying different wheels. He didn't address the lug nut issue (I was pretty disgusted by then and didn't bother to point out the obvious). I actually asked him WHY he'd specified different wheels (I expect the engineers on this forum to see what's wrong with this statement right away... while ya'll mere mortals won't see what I'm getting at):
He said that the new wheels had a greater surface area contacting the hub, and therefore would have more friction against the hub.
I sincerely hope that some of ya'll will get a laugh out of this.
Now that long and only marginally interesting story is to demonstrate this: engineers make mistakes. They are OFTEN wrong. Don't even get me started on warranty campaigns that I've dealt with from assorted diesel engine & heave equipment manufacturers over the years.
So appeal to authority doesn't hold much water for me when it comes to technical discussions. Or really ANY discussion.
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