Why do people go 100,000 plus with no ATF Service?

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During the last two decads I've always bought used cars. How often do you see an owners manual in a used car? Before that always bought new cars and never kept them long enough to concern myself with a tranny service.

Two-threes ago I got my first computer and later found this site. Wallla, all kinds of info and tips and stuff I knew nothing about, even tho I've done my own oil changes and tune up's all the way back into the '50's.

At least this is my excuse!
 
some good points here. since most of the folks are not DIY and half the population are women. If the manual says the trans fluid will last 100K, why would they dread bringing their vehicle to the dealer to get their wallet flushed $500?? Some here complain about folks using the manual specs and then some complain when their mom,daughter, or sister get reamed by these wallet flushers. Can't have it both ways
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
A lot of people don't do it because it's expensive. $350 is the minimum I can get someone to do an Audi Tiptronic with OE fluid for, and I'm sure the dealers get even more. I imagine many brands of cars are the same way. Lucky my Honda is simple nd cheap. Too bad those Euro owners are drinking the Kool-Aid made from OE fluids....right? Changing out that OE stuff at 60-90k with MaxLife would have served them well.


The question is why... does anything truly state that the maxlife is an acceptable spec for the audi tiptronic? What about the DSG? If they are not, most will not sacrifice a $$$$ AT for a few dollars saved on fluid.

Given that some folks actualy care about what happens after 150k miles, the right fluid also makes a difference.

So again, wh does a "simple" AT service cost $350 minimum? Is the tiptronic fluid $$$? I know the DSG fluid is. Is the pan more difficult to access than on other (perhaps non-AWD) vehicles?

There always is a driving factor, the question is why. If maxlie could be used beynd reasonable doubt and the service was simple, it would not be a $350 service.

All the same, any time that a pan drop is necessary, it is an hour job, and so it is bound to cost $100. Folks that care about their cars will spring for the $100. Folks that dont want to give their cars more than the basic $19.99 oil change may not.
 
The only thing I put off are the spark plugs...I feel its its runnning smooth and getting good gas mileage why mess with it...I went almost 200K miles on my 99 4.6 Grand Marquis with no issues with the original plugs...I now 85K miles on my 4.6 05 Crown Vic with the original plugs.

All other stuff like tranny fluid,antifreeze and etc I do before the factory recommendations as I generally keep a car for more then 200K miles in jungle heat conditions.
 
Changing fluids out early will net you an extra $1,000-2000 at trade in time if you sell the next owner or dealer on the idea that your car has been professionally maintained. I take my book with me. My last Lexus trade netted $2000 over KBB and was sold to the salesman's friend within 24 hours because of my maintenance records.
 
Agreed. I had a few sales go quickly and smoothly because I had a log book that shows maintenance and repair was done on a timely schedule. The log book was much appreciated by the new owner.
 
Yes, I would appreciate seeing a maintenance log in a used car, too. Unfortunately, many dealers will throw away every spare item in the car, since they were "personal items" that remind the new owner that the car once belonged to someone else. Of course it did.
 
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2

The question is why... does anything truly state that the maxlife is an acceptable spec for the audi tiptronic? If they are not, most will not sacrifice a $$$$ AT for a few dollars saved on fluid.

Given that some folks actualy care about what happens after 150k miles, the right fluid also makes a difference.

So again, wh does a "simple" AT service cost $350 minimum? Is the tiptronic fluid $$$?

There always is a driving factor, the question is why. If maxlie could be used beynd reasonable doubt and the service was simple, it would not be a $350 service.


http://store.europarts-sd.com/MaxLife_ATF_Letter.pdf



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OK, so a slew of different transmissions... great. Lots of fluids that cost $13-18/qt. So, where were we? 6 qts at $18 per = $108, Plus a $30 filter, $100 in labor and some fees... $250? So perhaps $350 is right.

Now, note the maxlife document: "Valvoline has conducted in-house testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions.
However, it is important to note that these vehicle manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife
ATF."

So maxlife may be OK, may not be. Would hate to find out on a $3000 AT.

So, back to my point, I do not find maxlife acceptable beyond reasonable doubt, and the fluids are $$$ but not $350 minimum to do the job pricey...
 
I suspect most people go long durations between fluid changes is because that's what the manual says to do. If a service adviser, mechanic, or quick lube place recommends service that isn't listed in the owner's manual, I think most people will be hesitant to sign on. It seems like most manuals completely over estimate intervals while places that offer service grossly under estimate it.

Off the top of my head, under normal conditions my manual recommends:

Oil change: 6,000
Differentials: 60,000
Coolant: 102,000
CVT: 120,000

No mention of PS or brakes.
 
Well, I will add to this thread as it seems to have a significant following, and is somewhat on-topic...

I posed a question elsewhere:

BMW X5, 35d (Diesel) ZP tranny, 6HP28X

Should we be doing ATF changes more frequently than the manufacturers recommended 100,000 miles?

Background: I've learned the hard way that ATF is an integral component of the transmisison, or at least it was in late 80s, 90s, and early 2000s trannies- that frequent changes ensures proper lubrication and freedom from sludging. (Last was a 2001 Acura MDX that lasted 206k, now with fresh tranny for the kids...cars since then have been 6speeds)

I've also become distrustful of manufacturer's claims of long OCIs and, in particular BMW since they pay for 'maintenance'..even if they didn't pay the marketing advantage of 'low maintenance costs' is powerful.

Discussion:

My question was met with a three fold response, maybe four fold:

1. BMW knows best, they wouldn't take the risk
2. We would see large numbers of failures if it was necessary- we don't, so it must be fine
3. Perhaps BMW and ZF know that the transmission will likely fail in the mid 100 (say 150k) and therefore the fluid IS, actually, 'lifetime'. (Seriously... they say this)
5. ZF makes good transmissions, maybe due to improvements in synthetic fluids, and good hydraulic design, thermal control, electronic torque modulation, etc, any changes under 100,000 miles are just a waste of money- there is no need.

Personally, I still believe this fluid WILL degrade, and lubrication loss will result- how soon, I do not know. Is it possible 100k is fine?

Or are we faced with the same issue as motors: RUN A UOA ON YOUR ATF AND DERIVE YOUR ON CHANGE INTERVAL.

Comments?

A

PS Great site, of course, lurker for years and years... :)
 
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True, BMW wouldn't take the risk. They know it'll fail out of warranty, which at that point they don't care, except more business for their dealers and aftermarket.

I agree that the transmission with original fluid would likely fail in the mid-100s. If look at the situation psychologically, the average person would rhetorically say... "oh well, it's up there in mileage... what do you expect?" This is why people don't report failures. They are usually the second owners. It would be a shame to consider a BMW with 150K "consumed". Somebody would have to pay for the repair. I believe a transmission can last much longer with good fluid maintenance, up until the time the vehicle is truly considered "consumed". Also, people who post in enthusiast forums are typically DIYers or people who are on top of doing what is needed to keep the car in top condition. They change transmission fluid. They will not have wholesale problems with their transmission.

Remember that Mercedes took a step back from "lifetime fill" to "change at 40K, then good for life (or 100K)" or something to that effect. I don't believe there was an engineering change to the transmission at the same time - just a change in philosophy on fluid management.

I too believe that changing out the fluid after a 30K break-in will go a long way in extending transmission life.

6-speed transmissions do a lot more shifting than 4-speed transmissions. Each shift is a wear event. At the same time Mercedes came out with their 7-speed transmission, they came out with a new transmission fluid (and perhaps the new change-at-40K philosophy).
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas

Also, people who post in enthusiast forums are typically DIYers or people who are on top of doing what is needed to keep the car in top condition. They change transmission fluid. They will not have wholesale problems with their transmission.


Thx.

Agree with your comments, but having a hard time disabusing people of the concept of "BMW Knows Best, and ZF would never risk their reputation with ill-advised maintenance". There truly is a hard core voice of people who feel that a fluid change is a "risk" and the risk outweighs the benefit.

(My term for these folks would be 'Lessees') :)

As per your quote above: You've just GOT to read Bimmerforums.com, bimmerfest.com and xoutpost.com... yes, quite a few DIY types, but still in the minority (although a spectrum exists in any given forum)...

BITOG is just a whole new level of 'hands on', by almost any car forums' standards. IMHO

And a personal note. I have a pretty wide collection of cars- a Ford, Dodge, Porsche, Acrua, 2 bmws... and I don't have any particular goal to achieve 100, 200 or 300k on any one car. But as a engineer, as someone who has a great interest about what makes things work, the concept of not caring for a mechanical assembly because you might not be the owner when it comes time to 'pay the piper' is deeply offensive. Almost a moral failing.

A

PS Good tip on the MB recommendations.... I'll need to see what history is there.
 
Originally Posted By: ard
Originally Posted By: Kestas

Also, people who post in enthusiast forums are typically DIYers or people who are on top of doing what is needed to keep the car in top condition. They change transmission fluid. They will not have wholesale problems with their transmission.


Thx.

Agree with your comments, but having a hard time disabusing people of the concept of "BMW Knows Best, and ZF would never risk their reputation with ill-advised maintenance".
(My term for these folks would be 'Lessees') :)



just ask them what business is BMW in? answer: selling new cars!

by the time the zf transmission fails at 150k (from no maintenance) the majority of bwm's will be on their second owner. the majority of these second owners are not new car prone! with that said i don't think bmw cares what people who can't come up with the cash think? do you?

finally most of my friends who own bmw's think it has a bmw transmission. they have never heard of zf. just like most of my friends who have bmw's with the 4l30e transmission think that "wow what a 4 speed wonder" L.O.L.? regardless of who makes the transmission bmw gets the blame or the praise imho. mike

p.s. change it early and often!
 
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Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
What on earth makes people think a transmission will last with such dreadful maintence?

Because they will. Maybe not long by BITOG terms, but long enough that it won't be a concern for the first, or maybe even second owner. For many, this is reason enough to not spend $150.

A friend of mine has a 1998 F-150 with a little over 130K miles on it now. This truck gets dino oil changes every 10K-20K miles and NO other maintenance, period! Only tires when they blow out and brakes when the backing plate of the pad touches the rotor. I'm not exaggerating. The transmission still shifts fine. It might or might not shift better with new fluid, but right now it is not slipping or having any other issues. I suggested to him before the truck had 90K on it to change it, but I knew it wouldn't happen. That's the way some people are with cars, and it's very hard to convince them to spend money on a vehicle that still moves when they put it in drive.

Personally, I can't bring myself to go longer than 30K miles on ATF.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
What on earth makes people think a transmission will last with such dreadful maintence?


My neighbor has 86 rust bucket Corolla...She bought it brand new in 86...She came to me one day and said the temperature gauge keeps going over to the H position..When I asked when the last time the cooling system was serviced she said never...She also said the transmission fluid was never changed either just like all the other fluids...She does change her oil every 6-8 months though...The car has 70K miles on it...All local stop and go...It just had a spark pugs and filters changed for the first time last August as it started to get a miss

Since the tune up last July the car still runs very hot but nothing has happened yet...She uses the car everyday for very short runs...She said if the car falls apart its just fine [the a/c went out] as she said she got her money out of it...BTW the transmission shifts just fine.

She did finally ask her mechanic [after I told her] to change her antifreeze [which in brown dirty water] and tranny fluid but he refused saying the only thing keeping all that stuff together is the dirt.
 
I just drained a friend's 96 Camry with some icky ATF. Doing several drain/fills with ST Dex VI this week, MaxLife next week.
 
After swapping out the factory fill in a differential it is OK imo to go 100k miles. I change out my differential in all my cars at 100k with synthetic.

However with transfer cases and transmissions 30k without question.
 
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
What on earth makes people think a transmission will last with such dreadful maintence?


My neighbor has 86 rust bucket Corolla...She bought it brand new in 86...She came to me one day and said the temperature gauge keeps going over to the H position..When I asked when the last time the cooling system was serviced she said never...She also said the transmission fluid was never changed either just like all the other fluids...She does change her oil every 6-8 months though...The car has 70K miles on it...All local stop and go...It just had a spark pugs and filters changed for the first time last August as it started to get a miss

Since the tune up last July the car still runs very hot but nothing has happened yet...She uses the car everyday for very short runs...She said if the car falls apart its just fine [the a/c went out] as she said she got her money out of it...BTW the transmission shifts just fine.

She did finally ask her mechanic [after I told her] to change her antifreeze [which in brown dirty water] and tranny fluid but he refused saying the only thing keeping all that stuff together is the dirt.


Funny my wife had a Corolla that was the same. Can't remember the year but had over 200k. A little while after I met her from some reason I drove it for a bit. The temp gauge didn't move! I think it had only 1/2 the coolant it was supposed to. The radiator had a hole in it. Transmission hadn't been changed either. Still ran and drove fine and that's all that mattered to her. She paid $1500 and drove it 4-5 years. We sold it for $500 to young couple about four years ago.. they were still driving it 2 years ago at least. The only problem she had was any and every bolt decided to come loose.. never seen that before or since.
 
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