Anybody think yellow fog lights are better

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I like this topic. The trend in the auto lighting industry seems to be toward higher color temperature lighting (less red/yellowish and more bluish/violet). I have a graduate degree in physiologic optics and vision science, but I'm still not sure I understand the visual implications of the trend toward higher color temperature. There are so many factors that contribute to how the human visual system perceives the world that it’s hard to predict how the different physical properties of the light translate into actual visual perception. There have been many clinical studies, and a few that are ongoing.

It’s interesting to hear what you guys have to say. Here are a few factors I can think of, some of which were already mentioned:

1) Yellow light scatters less than blue light in the atmosphere (or stated another way, shorter wavelength light scatters more). Why is the sky blue? Why does the sun appear yellow? Why do marksmen and hunters prefer yellow tinted lenses? The answer is because blue light scatters in the atmosphere. Remove blue light and there will be less scatter. In a vacuum the rules are different, but that’s another story.

2) Retinal sensitivity to light varies depending on lighting conditions: The scotopic system (dark adapted, using rods) is used in low light situations and is most sensitive to light in the 505 nm range (yellow-greenish light). The photopic system (light adapted, using cones) is used during the day and is most sensitive to light in the 555 nm range (more greenish). The mesoptic system is a combination of the scotopic and photopic. The mesoptic system is used during low light conditions, like at dusk. I’m not sure how these systems comes into play, but I would think this suggests that per lumen, yellow light is more efficient for human vision AT NIGHT. That being said, you don’t see many people preferentially driving around with yellow-green lights.

3) Perceived brightness is different than usable light. Perceived brightness increases as a logarithmic function of reflected light intensity. In other words, the relationship between brightness of a light and how bright we perceive light is not linear. Added to this is that scattered light can be perceived as brightness. Therefore scattered blue light may make us perceive more brightness even if it does not contribute to a usable image. I’ve heard this as a theory of why drivers prefer the high color temperature of HID lighting.

4) Human psychology probably plays a huge role in “preferred” color temperature. There are all kinds of studies out there that look at the affect of different wavelengths of lighting on how humans behave. The results are interesting. How does street light color affect crime rates? What color lights in the class room do students learn more? What color should office lighting be to encourage productivity? What colors in restaurants encourage people to order more food?

Interesting stuff, but yet, I don’t have any real answers. I admit to enjoying my HID lighting over halogen, even though that’s counter intuitive to me. From a physiological optics stand point, I would think yellow would be a better color for fog lights
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Anyway, I’m glad to see the discussion.
 
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MtnMike, nice summary.

There's one more factor that should be included. That is our reduced visual acuity to objects lit with blue light. Our lenses focus blue light ahead of the retina, so blue lit objects are out of focus. The number and distribution of the blue sensitive cones also does not favor visual acuity.

Neither physics nor physiology favor blue light in any way. This holds true especially for conditions where fog lights would be used.

I can see where the increased output and better light control of a properly designed HID might trump the less than optimum wavelength distribution under clear conditions. Would you prefer the current blue tint to a more yellow if the quantity and control of the light was identical?

The psychological factor could be very real. Is there some deep reason that we respond to the wavelengths favorably, or could it be simply that we have been told that it is better so we think it is?

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Ed
 
Sitting behind the wheel of an HID car I notice the cutoff from light to dark is sharper, thanks to better focusing mechanisms, psuedo e-code patterns, etc. This contrast helps one feel the lit part is brighter.

They can make 3200'K HID lights that look like halogens but choose not to... because as something found on luxury cars, darn it, you want the world to see you have something different.
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
MtnMike, nice summary.

There's one more factor that should be included. That is our reduced visual acuity to objects lit with blue light. Our lenses focus blue light ahead of the retina, so blue lit objects are out of focus. The number and distribution of the blue sensitive cones also does not favor visual acuity.

Neither physics nor physiology favor blue light in any way. This holds true especially for conditions where fog lights would be used.

I can see where the increased output and better light control of a properly designed HID might trump the less than optimum wavelength distribution under clear conditions. Would you prefer the current blue tint to a more yellow if the quantity and control of the light was identical?

The psychological factor could be very real. Is there some deep reason that we respond to the wavelengths favorably, or could it be simply that we have been told that it is better so we think it is?

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Ed


Yep true, another strike against HIDs and LEDs
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Sitting behind the wheel of an HID car I notice the cutoff from light to dark is sharper, thanks to better focusing mechanisms, psuedo e-code patterns, etc. This contrast helps one feel the lit part is brighter.

They can make 3200'K HID lights that look like halogens but choose not to... because as something found on luxury cars, darn it, you want the world to see you have something different.


I'll have to pay more attention to the 3200K lights on the luxury cars. Yeah the quality of the beam pattern makes a big difference in the usability of the light. You get what you pay for in lighting.
 
Agreed.
If we look headlamp light color especially at the trending, we all had hologen at one point with the yellow temerature even the more expensive automobiles. Then higher end cars with HID started coming out and everyone noticed it immediately, and really set them a part from the rest. That association higher temperature blue = higher end car started to really spread. Then the entrance of the HID kits wrongly placed in halogen reflectors and blue tint bulb to the complete mess we have today. The automobile companies give us what we want for the most part.

In the quest for perfect lighting in adverse weather proper optics with sharp cutoff would be the first step accompanied with lower light temperature (as for reasons mentioned). If I had a HID setup from factory putting a lower color temperature would be my fist modification if it wasn't available from factory.
 
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In the US, we are taught that blue-white is a clean white and our detergents use an optical brightener that flouresces blue to make the laundry more appealing to our cultural perception of clean. In Europe, yellow-white is culturally favored and they often use yellow optical brighteners as a result.

I think this cultural bias may explain some of the use of blue lighting.
 
Both yellow and blue lights are annoying, to some extent.
Blue more than yellow. Especially those cars whose headlights are that piercing blue to begin with. I am attracted to 0 of those vehicles.
 
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Originally Posted By: MtnMike
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4) Human psychology probably plays a huge role in “preferred” color temperature. There are all kinds of studies out there that look at the affect of different wavelengths of lighting on how humans behave. The results are interesting. How does street light color affect crime rates? What color lights in the class room do students learn more? What color should office lighting be to encourage productivity? What colors in restaurants encourage people to order more food?


Also, the "Hawthorne Effect" comes into play, where a perceived difference, or the attention of others cause a temporary positive reaction regardless if the improvement actually made things better or worse.
 
These things are so subjective to start, like taste or smell, all our senses are not exactly alike that is certain. The summary could be that the difference is not entirely negligible, so there is a slight advantage to a more yellow temperature light, but the amount of that advantage varies from person to person.
 
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Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr


Red light is easier to see at night because the wavelength is longer.
That's why I switched the interior bulbs of my Impala to red after riding in (the front of) a cop car years ago and they had the white overhead, but also a switch to turn on red light) I someday want to get red Leds so it's even easier to see at night. Saw a flashlight that I wouldn't mind getting that had the different light available in same flashlight.
 
Another psychological thing that I bet is going on is that when we seem to think a bluer light is brighter, it is because of the scatter. When something is very bright, the light seems to scatter from it. Either because the light is just reflecting all over the place, or because we are squinting. So at night, when we fire up our blue headlights, we see all that scatter and it seems brighter.
 
I have 6k HIDs for headlights and 3k HIDs for fogs. I really thought the 3k fogs would help in the rain and snow but I do not notice a difference. Looks cool though.
 
Originally Posted By: Unearthed
I have 6k HIDs for headlights and 3k HIDs for fogs. I really thought the 3k fogs would help in the rain and snow but I do not notice a difference. Looks cool though.


Are those fogs OEM? If not, what brand and where did you get them? Sounds like a cool thing to have. ~Mike
 
They are called fog lights for a reason... rain and snow is not fog.

I have 4200K 55W HID projectors and I love them to death... now if the adjustment knobs were easier to reach on my car...
 
has anyone ever noticed how you can keep playing football even after your mom says to come in because it's dark?

the light is more orange/yellow/green and you can still see just fine to nab that Hail Mary!
 
Originally Posted By: MtnMike
Originally Posted By: Unearthed
I have 6k HIDs for headlights and 3k HIDs for fogs. I really thought the 3k fogs would help in the rain and snow but I do not notice a difference. Looks cool though.


Are those fogs OEM? If not, what brand and where did you get them? Sounds like a cool thing to have. ~Mike


Nope not OEM...you can get any color and any bulb size here:
http://www.ddmtuning.com/index.php?p=product&id=101&parent=85

I am pretty sure it was the fog bulb housing that ruined the quality of light output from the fogs. My headlights were amazingly bright and had some pretty decent cutoff which never seemed to bother other drivers. That car was totaled though...so time to start all over.
 
Yes I actually prefer yellow fog lights. I rarely use my non-yellow fogs on my 2002 Sequoia Limited but I often use the yellow fogs on my PIAA Quattro's that are on my JAOS Bullbar. They work great in early morning fog and snow storms.

The regular fogs just reflect back into my eyes when foggy.
 
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