Oil mix for smooth shifting: Shifters mix #8

[HighViscosity]

I've been blending oil for years trying to find the best ratio for my particular bike,currently a 98 Honda ST1100. These bikes have beefy gears and give a lot of tactile feedback letting you know whats going on in there. Even when changing oil with the exact same type (Mobile 1 15w-50 for example) The shifting will change dramatically. I can tell how much my oil is shearing by how it shifts when hot. If it starts getting "snatchy" I know I have between 4500-5000 miles on it. This oil has been very consistent in this regard.

This past year I went through over 8 gallons of oil before I found a mix I was happy with. These are all locally available oils with good reputations. It is commonly accepted that mixing oils offers little benefit in cars, as you are detached from the engine to the point of no sensory feedback, other than sound. It could also be argued that you are "watering down" the best traits of each particular oil. This is true, but you also reduce any shortcoming that a particular oil may poses. It is merely an "average" of all the attributes.

Heres my current favorite blend for buttery shifting goodness:

2 Parts German Castrol 0w-30 (superb wear protection, Good cold flow, Heavy 30wt, Excellent viscosity retention and top notch base stock)

1 part Mobil 1 15w-50 non EP (Well respected oil for motorcycle use, higher zinc and phos. for gears.)
1 part Royal purple 10w-40 (High levels of zinc and phos, nice moderate dose of moly, Excellent cleanliness, evidence mounting that RP oil (synerlec) does an outstanding job of protecting steel parts, gave single biggest boost to shift quality.)

After I try each blend for about 400 miles, I drain it and store it for car use. I havent done a VOA on this yet but you can look at a VOA for each particular component to get an idea of its chemistry. This mix offers a viscosity of approximately 5w-40 when averaging VOA's. These oils are compatible with each other, and the inside of my valve cover is like brand new. Some of my criteria were:

Amount of force required to upshift
Smoothness of gear change
Amount of clashing when downshifting at higher RPM
Shifting properties when cold (Im very happy with the result here as well)
Effort and smoothness of lazy gear changes (late clutching, poor RPM matching)
Consistency of shifting over temperature range


I'm looking forward to see how it feels after 5000 miles and getting a UOA, but with winter here it won't be till summer. My next project is to find the best Oil or mix of oils available on the planet. At this point I think I will start with Redline and Amsoil. Redline has an impressive adpack and literally doesn't seem to shear. Amsoil is shear stable and offers a lot of blending options. I don't necessarily prefer Motorcycle oils for Motorcycles, for example their aversion to moly which does not affect the clutch when kept under 800 ppm. This is based on over a dozen riders I know who have ran high moly concentrations with no ill effects. Moly does its thing on steel, not the friction discs in the clutch which are like oily brake pads. It doesn't soak into the material.

If any of you try this blend, please give me your feedback and what kind of bike you have. I'd like to hear what you think, and if there are any shift attributes that you would like improved for your particular bike. I'm getting a feel for how each oil ......well, ...feels, so I should be able to tailor it a bit. I've tried Castrol GTX, Delo, rotella, Syntec, amsoil, redline, RP, PP, Mobil 0w40,10w-40HM, 15w-50,5w-40TDT, etc.

Viscosity has a large bearing on shift quality, but this is a moving target for each bike. Engines with lighter gears are usually happy with a slightly lighter oil.

 

[ZGRider]

How do you measure?

"Amount of force required to upshift
Smoothness of gear change
Amount of clashing when downshifting at higher RPM
Shifting properties when cold (Im very happy with the result here as well)
Effort and smoothness of lazy gear changes (late clutching, poor RPM matching)
Consistency of shifting over temperature range"

No disrespect, but those are not objective criteria for evaluating oil -- there is no way for you to accurately judge those qualities. It is entirely "seat-of-the-pants" quantifications. If you want "buttery" shifting, find a bike known for that quality, otherwise only UAOs will tell the true story.

Oil is to keep the moving parts adequately lubricated and reducing wear for engine longivity -- not smooth shifting.

Remember that your particular bike has a longitudinally mounted engine which means that the direction of the shift lever is 90 degrees to the motion of the shift forks and that necessitates a more complex (read: more moving parts) transmission shift mechanism. If you don't believe me, ride a BMW or Moto Guzzi -- they have the same problem and more.

You need to quit worrying about shift quality vs oil quality, I believe they are mutually exclusive.

 

[Mackelroy]

Thats way to much involvement to me, the worst and best shifting oil , theres only about a 5% difference.

Either a gate or no gate transition as far as usage.

What makes an oil shift smoother or less notchy, it has little to do with the transmission, and more to do with the clutch. Oils than tend to have more clutch friction, offer more notchy shifting. The moly oils should provide smoother shifting cause they dont have as tight of grip on the clutch.

 

[HighViscosity]

Originally Posted By: ZGRider
How do you measure?

No disrespect, but those are not objective criteria for evaluating oil -- there is no way for you to accurately judge those qualities. It is entirely "seat-of-the-pants" quantifications. If you want "buttery" shifting, find a bike known for that quality, otherwise only UAOs will tell the true story.

You need to quit worrying about shift quality vs oil quality, I believe they are mutually exclusive.


None taken. Only a fool would blindly accept what's written on an internet forum. If someone else posted this I'd be asking tough questions too. Yes it is seat of the pants, because that is what is important to me. I do not expect each mix to be the best, so I try to evaluate each one objectively. This is just a fun experiment for me, but I can definitely feel how each oil differs while shifting. I love my bike, but the shift quality has always had room for improvement, and I'm very tactile (when I look at a new car, I push the switches on the dash to see how they feel). I started thinking about how oil could affect shift quality after noticing how much differently it "feels" when I put in a fresh batch of the same type. I believe UOA's give an indication of wear, but not of shift quality.

I dont think shift quality and oil quality are mutually exclusive, For example, the oil mix listed above is made from high quality, well respected oils. Their quality does not diminish in this mix, but in my opinion the shift quality definitely improves.

If you are content with the way your bike shifts, there is no point mixing oils. I only did it to enhance this trait, and was surprised at the difference so I shared it here. It was fun, and I believe it can be useful to some here.

Merry Xmas

Kevin

 

[HighViscosity]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
Thats way to much involvement to me, the worst and best shifting oil , theres only about a 5% difference.

Either a gate or no gate transition as far as usage.

What makes an oil shift smoother or less notchy, it has little to do with the transmission, and more to do with the clutch. Oils than tend to have more clutch friction, offer more notchy shifting. The moly oils should provide smoother shifting cause they dont have as tight of grip on the clutch.



I don't know by what percentage they differ, but the change is pronounced. I also believe most of the changes are due to ingredients/properties that don't even show up in a UOA. For example, The Polyol base stock in Redline varies quite differently than grp III and IV in that it has a much stronger affinity to steel and emulates a film of higher viscosity.

Common sense would seem to imply that when a shift feels smoother with less clashing, and the sounds are fewer and less pronounced, that reduced wear would also accompany. After all it is the metal collisions that are creating the sound.

BTW, of all the oils tested, the worst shifting oil BY FAR was Delo 15w-40. Yet this is one of the best HD oils, and in my opinion gives lower wear numbers than Rotella and Delvac. There are so many variables on how a bike shifts that seemingly similar oils have very different personalities.

I have ran 3 different Trans oils in my G35 and each one was very different. I currently run Redline MTL/MT90 and it is vastly superior. The only downside, I hear a faint gear whine when very cold, say below 20F. Others have also noted a big improvement with Redline, so why would it be any less pronounced in a motorcycle where you are even more directly connected to the machine.

 

[Mackelroy]

((((((((BTW, of all the oils tested, the worst shifting oil BY FAR was Delo 15w-40))))))))))


We are in agreement there, I ran that stuff maybe 200 mile and had to get it out of my bike it was so notchy.

THAT is what I mean by No gate transition >G
I'm about to try the 10w40 Redline (mc oil specific), hoping there is in fact some better clutch friction than the Car oil 10w40.

I've seen mild slippage, that happens only on Redline car oil in wet clutches , while no slippping using other oils.

There is a definte slippier issue there

Not doing it for the tranny though, but trying to get my vfr to stay below 210 degree in the summer.

 

[HighViscosity]

I used to have an 85 VF1000R superbike, V65 Sabre and Magna. I've always liked the VFR's, and Honda V-4's in particular. They have a lot more soul than an inline 4.

I'm thinking about trying Redline oil next. I wish I had a VFR so I could run two tests simultaneously. Interesting about the clutch slippage with their car oil. I was thinking about trying the car oil too. I was curious to see how a high dose of moly would affect the clutch and transmission. I was expecting very good steel protection with all that moly acting as a suit of armor.

 

[HighViscosity]

Originally Posted By: Mackelroy


Not doing it for the tranny though, but trying to get my vfr to stay below 210 degree in the summer.


I've ridden in Texas in the summertime, it felt like a giant hair dryer was pointing at me, and my now ex-wife became severely dehydrated. Too bad she recovered.....

 

[Mackelroy]

It wasnt the vfr I had the issue with and slippping was so mild, I thought it was in my head.

It was my second change on redline, so I'd been running it several thousand miles. Steady road, over a period of a couple weeks I'd feel slips so slight I questioned my mind. Till one day I started at the bottom of a big mountain, blowing through all the gears underfull throttle condition, and hit top gear and no question I had clutch slippage. Went back to known goood clutch oil, and back to the Mountain, no more issue.

 

[Robenstein]

I would not use any oil, diluted or not, that was energy conserving on a shared sump system.

The smoothest shifting oil in my Yamaha has been Rotella T and Lucas 20w50 Moto oil. I cant even feel the shift with Lucas.

 

[HighViscosity]

I'll have to check into Lucas. I have tried their upper cylinder lubricant, but not their oil.

 

[Mackelroy]

Yeh,

I dont know if they've actually done something friction related on their specific mc oil, they advertise as such. But I note its still an MB rated fuid, meaning it doesnt meet most wet clutches MA friction requirement.

 

[rickg]

The factory shop manual on my 07 VTX 1300 warns to never use "energy conserving" oils due to damage to the friction material on the clutch pack. With that said, I can feel the difference between Dino oils and synthetic oil.. Syn has a much better shift for my bike as well as about a 2 MPG increase... I am always looking into oils for my ride and trying different brands to see which works best.. Your blending sounds interesting, but i dont have the time to play with it.. I just need a good recommendation for a quality oil for my ride.. Any suggestions ???

Thanks
Rick

 

[HighViscosity]

Hi Rick

What is the recommended weight and how many miles do you ride a year.

Welcome to Bitog!

 

[rickg]

10w40 and i ride around 12k a year..

Thanks for the welcome.. i found this site surfing for oil filter information for the Fleet i take care of.. I have been doing lots of reading here today... :O)

 

[HighViscosity]

With that mileage you will be commited to a least 2 oil changes per year. If you dont mind ordering, and paying the for best of the best, two oils that I would choose are Amsoil and Redline. They offer some of the best shear resistance, and have high zinc which offers wear insurance (needed or not) for physical metal contact.

Next I would recommend Rotella 5w-40 synthetic. While not offering the same shear resistance, this oil performs well in just about any application. This can be bought at Wal-Mart for a very good price, and could do 6k miles with UOA confirmation, or 3 oil changes per year very easily. Shift quality with this oil is slightly above average.

I'm not familiar with your engine, but that type typically is easy on oil. Lower rpm's and better mechanical stress distribution mean lower wear rates and lower oil requirements than a highly stressed high hp/litre engine. That gives you added flexibility.

Mobil 1 15w-50 is "old reliable". Other people along with myself have used it in bikes for years with good results. With my ST1100 (which is easy on oil) I can get about 5k miles out of it before the shifting gets too rough. It does shear down to a mid 30 weight by that time. Not too bad for a shared sump bike. Shift quality is average.

I have only used their car oil in my bike (Royal purple 10w-40) and it had the best shift quality of the oils I tested (except for the mix). Based on car UOA's I think it may shear more than Mobil 1 15w-50, so 3 changes per year may be required. This oil also cleaned the metal in my engine to where it looked like new. I suspect they might use a slightly higher ester concentration or their trademark Synerlec component is ester based. The way the company describes it, it has all the stereotypical characteristics of an ester.

On most oils I wouldn't worry about using a 50 weight because of shearing. Your big jugs ;-) also have more piston to cylinder clearance because of thermal expansion. Mobil 1 V twin would work in this regard. There are others but these come to mind first.

With acceptable OCI's that engine should outlast you even when running cheap dino. Of course if it were me, I'd use a different one each time and pick my personal favorite.

 

[whitesands]

Just an observation on some oils I've used where I've noticed better shift quality in one oil in comparison to other oils...So far the best shift quality has been with Delvac 1300..I ride a Bandit 1250 and used Rotella 15W40 for about 13,000 miles with 2 to 2,500 OCI's...I really like the Rotella as it retains viscosity very well and looks almost new when draining after 2,500 miles..Switched to Delvac and noticed a definite improvement when shifting down into first when coming to a stop.....And shifting quality lasted longer on the Delvac....I do like both oils, but the Delvac performed very well in this area.

 

[priler]

highviscosity,i would take a totally different approach.

first of all,i've never own your bike model so i'm not extremely familiar with it,but i do know exactly what bike it is,so take this for what it's worth.

i would first take a very long time discussing this(the shift quality)with other people that have tons of experience with this particular bike/year.forums and maybe people at the dealers,are good places.

most of the reasons for cluncky shifting on some bikes,has to do with design,complexity and even straight cut gears. you may find that some people(or many others)have tried to address this issue before. again,i'm not familiar with all the design features of your bike,but for example,some people have smoothed the shifting(and clutch drag,finding neutral)on certain bikes,by changing the clutch oil jet.this is basically a tiny screw type piece with a predetermined size hole in the center.there may be more than one you can use,but on your bike,there may not.

you may find that the OEM recieved lots of complaints on this issue and then did some kind of redesign or maybe not.if so,you may be able to integrate this.i don't know.

i would also make sure there isn't some other basic mechanical adjustment i could make to improve this,like at the clutch lever,actuating rod or maybe a after-market master or something else others have found to improve.i would hang around a dedicated forum to get the real-deal on this.

after all that,i wouldn't mix-match all kinds of oils to get what i want.i would try one oil at a time and eventually change if unsatisfactory. you may find that one specific oil that has a particular combination of certain base oils,additive pack and particular weight,may actually give the best results,.....and then stick with it.(someone may have already found this for you)

 

[HighViscosity]

The bike works as designed and is in great shape, I just wanted to improve shift quality if I could. All the oils I used I used straight to judge their characteristics and then tried blends in different combinations. I now have enough test oil left to keep my wifes suv lubed forever.

My first choice was to find a mono oil I'm happy with, and I'm still looking, but I determined that I would run this mix at least 5k and get a UOA. Then I'll probably try Redline. I'm very happy with the mix so far, and with my bikes 4qt sump mixing is very easy. 2 quarts GC, 1 qt Mobil 15w-50, 1qt Royal Purple 10w-40. I was happy with the way RP shifted, but on its own I think it would shear more than I like. GC does very good with shearing, so Im hoping for better results than previous runs of Mobil 1 15w-50.

 

[HighViscosity]

Something else that helps is to clean and lube the shift linkage occasionally. I use Redline grease in a syringe and lube the ball joints inside the rubber boots. Another Awesome lube that works well on shifters, cables, and just about anything that move outside the crankcase is Boshield. This was developed by the boeing company and its a wonder in a can. Doesn't attract dust, offers corrosion resistance, clear and non staining, and outlasts any lube I've used before. This is the favorite chain lube of long distance bicyclists (how I became introduced to it) and now its the only spray lube I need. Works great around the house too. Slices, dices, and makes julian fries!