Aisin Warner AF33 - what oil (can I mix?)

[fikse]

In my Opel Vectra, they have used a DexronIII as standard factory fill (AFAIK). I have changed oil 3 times now, with "original" Opel ATF oil, who is a Dexron VI, probably made by Fuchs ( Titan ATF 6000, a fully syntetic). I want to completely flush the gearbox (by emptying via disconnecting the return cooler hose). GM wants me to use Dexron VI, or Fuchs Titan ATF 6000. Aisin Warner wants me to use a JWS 3309 oil, and I think I will try to stick with that, if its compatible with the Dexron III and VI? I mean, even if I flush with 20 litres of 3309, Ill guess it still will be some Dexron III / VI-oil left; will this do any harm?
Fuchs also produce a 3309 oil, Titan ATF 4400.

 

[unDummy]

Use the DexronVI or a full synthetic DexronIII.

AW wants you to use what the automaker recommends as they have multiple transmissions requiring multiple different specs.

If it came with DexronIII, then any equivalent or upgrade should be used.

 

[Ken2]

Dexron-VI has several major differences from Dex-III; one of the main ones is the lighter viscosity of Dex-VI.

Compatibility means that the mixed fluids don't form some black gunk or worthless watery mess or something like that. It does not mean that the fluids are interchangeable.

If Aisin-Warner wants a 3309 fluid in there, I'd find one of the near-universal fluids that is recommended for both Dex-III and 3309 usage.

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Dexron-VI has several major differences from Dex-III; one of the main ones is the lighter viscosity of Dex-VI.

Compatibility means that the mixed fluids don't form some black gunk or worthless watery mess or something like that. It does not mean that the fluids are interchangeable.

If Aisin-Warner wants a 3309 fluid in there, I'd find one of the near-universal fluids that is recommended for both Dex-III and 3309 usage.


Actually the ATF 4400 is both 3309 and Dexron III. It was just released to the European market this November.
So, even if I now have a mix of III and VI in my autogear, it should work OK to flush with 20litres of this 3309 / Dexron III?

 

[nthach]

Stick to a JWS-3309/Toyota Type T-IV compliant fluid. T-IV and Dex III/VI are totally different beasts when it comes to friction coefficient and viscosity.

 

[AzFireGuy79]

FM wise, yes you are correct T-IV is very different from DEX/MERC but viscosity wise they are very close. Mobil 3309 atf is 7.2 while valvoline DEX/MERC is 7.46 @ 100 degrees celcius. That is very close and would work very well if a product like Lubegard BLACK was added.

I have been using Redline D4 ATF which is spec'd for T-IV apps and it has been working great for 25K now. Another one to consider would be Amsoil ATF if you can get it over in Norway. These two atfs work in Aisin Warner transmissions requiring T-IV/3309. Never mind the warranty talk. Just get a fluid that is spec'd for T-IV.

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
FM wise, yes you are correct T-IV is very different from DEX/MERC but viscosity wise they are very close. Mobil 3309 atf is 7.2 while valvoline DEX/MERC is 7.46 @ 100 degrees celcius. That is very close and would work very well if a product like Lubegard BLACK was added.

I have been using Redline D4 ATF which is spec'd for T-IV apps and it has been working great for 25K now. Another one to consider would be Amsoil ATF if you can get it over in Norway. These two atfs work in Aisin Warner transmissions requiring T-IV/3309. Never mind the warranty talk. Just get a fluid that is spec'd for T-IV.


I can get the Amsoil from a abroad site, but it will be #¤%% expensive, with freight, taxes, etc. It is 20 litres we are talking about ;-) AFAIK Fuchs is making good stuff in general, OEM supplier to several european car brands, and I get a reasonable price for a 20litre can. The amsoil will be approx 50% higher price... For my case the warranty is gone half a year ago, so I dont care about that. Just want to stick with the "most correct" spec, and be 100% sure I dont crush my gear by changing from the mix of Dex III/VI Im using now, and the 3309/T-IV/DexIII, as Fuchs delivers.

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: nthach
Stick to a JWS-3309/Toyota Type T-IV compliant fluid. T-IV and Dex III/VI are totally different beasts when it comes to friction coefficient and viscosity.

Hmm. Strange, since I can find oils who is specd to both DexIII and JWS3309/T-IV. Like the 4400 I refer too.

 

[unDummy]

Its that paranoid "anti-use another ATF" crowd that is alive and well here. I wish they would put themselves out to pasture.

Earlier AW units were filled with and can use DexronII/III. Later units require T-IV, and some of the newest units use WS fluids. 3309/T-IV was also used to reduce the poor shift quality in some older AW units(an upgrade factory fill Dexron).

AGAIN, IF YOUR TRANSMISSION WAS FILLED WITH DEXRON-III, THEN YOU CAN USE IT OR ANY UPGRADE/EQUIVALENT TO DEXRONIII!!!!!!!!!

I prefer full synthetic fluids since most transmissions have shortcomings. Any upgrade now will help in the long run.

If your transmission was factory filled with T-IV/3309, then you must use an equivalent fluid that meets the spec.

If you don't have the owners manual, then the 4400 is an easy choice since it can be used in both places. Its a universal multivehicle ATF. If you're not sure what to use, definitely use the 4400!

Now that I said that, the "anti universal multivehicle ATF crowd" will crawl out from under their rocks.

 

[fikse]

Im sorry if I dont understand where you are sarcastic and not; as an Norwegian, english is not my mother toungue

Anyway. For my sake I couldnt care less what spec the oil has, as along as i can be 99% sure Ill get the best quality/price relation.
In my gearbox I belive it is always used DexIII, also from factory. Well, until I started to change oil a few times, with "original" Opel/GM-oil, who is a Dex VI, most probably made by Fuchs (as Fuchs it is a Titan ATF 6000). But the identical gearbox, mounted in some Toyotas, Volvos, these car brands demands 3309, and also Aisin Warner spec the 3309. Or as Volvo says "Filled for life with JWS3309". Sweat!

Now, the question is what is the difference between a syntetic and "the other one", and if the AF 33 will work better with a $22/l. Dex VI who is a "fully syntetic", or if the $17/l. 3309 (not "fully syntetic") will do the job just as good.
Is it worth the extra $, and can I be at least 99% sure it will do only good with the Dex VI? $339 or $440 for 20 l.? Yes I know, Im stingy

 

[AzFireGuy79]

If I were you I would not spend 50% more for the amsoil. The 4400 as others have suggested would be an easy choice being an universal. Most universal ATF's work very well in 3309 specs AW transmissions. If it specs T-IV/3309 use that in whichever fluid meets that spec.

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
...Most universal ATF's work very well in 3309 specs AW transmissions. If it specs T-IV/3309 use that in whichever fluid meets that spec.

So, if I understand you correct, AW is not highly sensitive for what spec? What would you choose, a 3309 or a Dex VI?

 

[AzFireGuy79]

If your transmission requires 3309 find a fluid that satisfies that spec. The main advantage of a synthetic atf if thermal stability. Oxidation of the fluid from constant heat cycling is what we want to avoid in an automatic. This can be accomplished with either a conventional or sythetic atf. With conventional you will need to change it more often as it will oxidize more readily than synthetic. Synthetic can cost twice as much but tends to last 2-3 times as long because it is more resistant to oxidation.

Cost becomes a huge consideration for you being that you live in Norway! If you can find a reasonably priced universal synthetic atf that meets 3309, use that. If not just use a regular 3309 and change it more frequently. You can also add a filter like a magnefine if you want some added protection. Most autos, especially AW units have poor filtration (really just rock catchers in the pan) so any additional filtration will be a huge step up. This really comes into play when running synthetic atf for longer intervals.

 

[AzFireGuy79]

Aisin Warner transmissions that spec 3309 will work yes with Dexron fluid, but being that they call for a friction modified fluid to satisfy the slip-lock torque converter, your trans will not shift as it should while using Dexron III or VI. The main concern here is accelerated wear in the clutch packs from excessive slipping.

If it were mine and it called for 3309, I would stick with a fluid that satisfied that.

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
Aisin Warner transmissions that spec 3309 will work yes with Dexron fluid, but being that they call for a friction modified fluid to satisfy the slip-lock torque converter, your trans will not shift as it should while using Dexron III or VI. The main concern here is accelerated wear in the clutch packs from excessive slipping.

If it were mine and it called for 3309, I would stick with a fluid that satisfied that.


Hence the Castrol Multi Import vehicle transmission fluid!

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
...Cost becomes a huge consideration for you being that you live in Norway! If you can find a reasonably priced universal synthetic atf that meets 3309, use that. If not just use a regular 3309 and change it more frequently. You can also add a filter like a magnefine if you want some added protection. Most autos, especially AW units have poor filtration (really just rock catchers in the pan) so any additional filtration will be a huge step up. This really comes into play when running synthetic atf for longer intervals.

The prices here could look like extreme for you, but bear in mind the average income is also higher. So stuff like oil is still "affordable". Its just that when I look at US webshops I see some prices that I could just dream of! Main problem is to get oil from US to here: If the shop will ship international at all, its expensive. With taxes etc, its almost nothing to save. I also dont mind support my local oil-"pusher", as long as they also have good enough quality products.

Well, Ill guess Ill stick to the 3309, do a proper DIY flush, and the Magnefine thingy looks like a brilliant idea! Just read some posts here, and the Magnefine seems to do the job. My gearbox does not have any kind of filter, and if I recall correct, even no magnet on the drain plug. I even get one for my steering, since the Opel Vectra has a complicated and expensive electro-pneumatic steering rack, who is prone of failure/lekage. Thanks alot for the hint to this!

 

[fikse]

Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
Aisin Warner transmissions that spec 3309 will work yes with Dexron fluid, but being that they call for a friction modified fluid to satisfy the slip-lock torque converter, your trans will not shift as it should while using Dexron III or VI. The main concern here is accelerated wear in the clutch packs from excessive slipping.

If it were mine and it called for 3309, I would stick with a fluid that satisfied that.

OK. This make some sense, I think

Several complains about slipping on this gearbox, when mounted in cars where the manufacturer recommends DexIII ! And to use 3309 seems to be a secret for most mecanics for the european brand cars, like mine Opel Vectra. Also the Magnefine filters, I did not find any info in any of the european forums i frequent. But then, auto-gear is still some kind of "exlusive" here. Like flushing the gear-box? Nope. Almost no-one does. No garages does it. Only special auto-gear garages has a flushing machine, and you can tell from the hefty price they know they are without competition

Thanks alot for advises.

 

[AzFireGuy79]

No problem. That's the great thing about BITOG, we help each other out. Since you know how to perform the DIY flush/exchange you can be sure to get all of the old DEX out of there. Let us know which brand you decide to go with.

 

[fikse]

Yep, have learned alot from this site. Ill wait until after christmas/new year before doing this (its busy, its bl%¤ cold outside, and its going to cost some), but if nothing very special happens, Ill stick to the Fuchs Titan ATF 4400

 

[fikse]

Now It is approx 2 weeks since I flushed my gearbox. The oil I flushed out was pretty OK, so I only changed 10 litres this time, planning a new flush during the summer, then with a Magnefine filter, and also maybe a better cooling radiator. Its not space enough just to put on the filter, I have to re-route the pipes/tubes, so I might also put on a separate cooler (the original is a combined water/ATFoil cooler, prone to leak water into the ATFoil, killing the gearbox instantly!)

Result: My gear now works as I belive it should! It is HUGE difference in slipping. Difficult to measure, but lets says a sleek uphill, where it normally wouldnt gear down but just "slipper until speed is reached" (sorry, couldnt find better words), now it is 2-300 RPMs lower (down from 2.100 to 1.800) when maintaining approx 35-40 MPh. Now it sounds right, like other autogeared cars Ive driven.

The shifting is somewhat better. But I had no real troubles with shifting, maybe a little hard when shifting from 4 to 3 in 50MPh, this is still the same. Shifting in auto-mode is smoother, but I dont know if this is to the change to JWS3309-oil, or to the fact I now have changed alot oil.
Anyway, since the slippering now is 90% removed, Im very very happy with the result. Thanks alot for your help, both here and in other treads (I have read ALOT about ATF oils)