Redline 0w40 in a Nissan GT-R

[buster]

0w40

Quote:
Millen mentioned Nissan’s preference for an ester-based motor oil, leading Red Line chemists to confirm that its latest 0W40 Motor Oil would both match Nissan’s viscosity requirements and would do a better job in the varying rally conditions than even a Red Line racing oil that is designed to work in a more specific range. Not only this motor oil for road cars stand up to the brutal conditions of the Targa Newfoundland, but that it exceeds the properties of the car’s factory-recommended oil (which is not ester-based).

"In rallying, reliability is critical," Millen explains. "It takes reliable acceleration, high lateral grip and good brakes rather than all-out power in a race like this. We avoided making major modifications to the engine because Nissan designed a fantastic powerplant and we needed it to stay together."

"We added a little boost, revised the exhaust for better flow, and changed all the fluids to Red Line synthetic for maximum protection."

 

[Saab9-3]

Good to hear, I ran this oil in my Saab last winter, UOA looked great

 

[Resolute]

Unghh... this ester oil business with Nissan is getting really old. It's beginning to circulate like the XOM suing Castrol myth which continues to disseminate amongst automotive forums. A little bit of fact blended with a lot of ignorance.

Redline might very well make an excellent product, and although I find their blends to be somewhat "old-school" in terms of chemistry, I have no reason to doubt the oil performs well for its intended purpose.

However, the fact is Nissan has no penchant for using an ester base oil in any of its production cars. Nissan does recommend a conventional G2 base oil fortified with ester additive for use with its VVEL equipped VQ37VHR engine. This has been attributed to the hydrogen-free DLC (a-C coating) used on the spring bucket surface, but I have reasonable doubt that is the actual issue. Namely, the need for any special oil didn't arise until the VVEL system was introduced, while older VQ35HR engines used the same a-C coating without problem.

In any case, the interesting thing to note here isn't just the ridiculous claim that Redline contains Nissan's "preferred" chemistry for this engine, its that the major lubrication quandary of this engine wasn't addressed. Plasma coated aluminum cylinder bores are relatively new, and the tribology is still being studied. I read an SAE paper on the use of plasma liners and the propensity for corrosion in the presence of some engine lubricants, and if I recall correctly, heavy concentrations of polyolesters in the solution were an issue. So were sulfur concentrations.

Further, the GT-R's VR38DETT engine also uses the same a-C coatings as the HR and VHR engines. Nissan released their own white paper on these coatings and showed the ideal solution for minimal surface friction under the designed loads applied by the camshaft profile and spring pressure was a PAO base oil with a TMP ester additive. This significantly surpassed the friction reduction achieved using a conventional base oil with both TMP and more traditional additives (ZDDP, MoDTC, MoS2). Interesting to note the, that the only fluid actually recommended by Nissan for the GT-R is Mobil1 0W-40, and not a G5 base oil.

Of course, hydrolytic instability in a car that might not be driven as often as their more mainstream consumer models could also be a contributing factor for not specifically recommending a G5 oil.

As it is, there are a good many Nissan owners being led to believe that an ester base oil is simply the best there is for their engine without actually considering what Nissan actually recommends, and knowing the difference between an additive and base oil. While Redline might certainly make a fine product and may even be a non-issue for the plasma lined cylinders in the GT-R, this simply strikes me as taking advantage of a perpetuating myth for the sake of a sales pitch.

Will

 

[buster]

Hey Resolute! Good to see you posting on here. Great information. I've been curious about this Nissan Ester oil issue they are having.

Redline certainly uses a very advanced additive package and base oil combo, but is geared more for flat tappet cam engines and engines that see very high temperatures. It's definitely a bit more old school in terms of ZDP/Ca levels compared to some of the other newer oils like Amsoil SSO. I don't have an issue with them marketing their 0w-40 here, and keep in mind that if this particular engine builder/tuner is seeing better results with Redline, then it's doing the job. Maybe they are just reporting what this guy has discovered with using their 0w-40?

You raise a lot of valid points. Hydrolytic stability could be an issue, although Redline says it's absolutely not due to the additive package they use in conjunction with the POE base oils.

Oil formulating requires certain trade-offs. Redline has been using a similar chemistry going on 5-6 years now, so I think it's safe to say they their oils are doing a good job in many applications.

The funny thing is, most synthetic oils such as M1/PP/Amsoil etc. all use a bit of ester. Amsoil uses diesters, Mobil uses POE + AN's. Valvoline Synpower does not use any esters I was told. So there are many oils out there that clearly fulfill this requirement.

What oils do you see holding up very will in these Nissan engines? Any recommendations?

 

[Resolute]

Hi Buster,

Thank you for the kind words and welcome. I don't visit this site much and am sorry not to have responded sooner.

I don't really make recommendations on oils, since it seems you could run just about anything and be alright with a normal drain interval. However, here is a comparison chart I have made for VQ35DE engine oil analysis. I considered over 100 UOA results from this engine when calculating the average wear amount for each metal per brand. Every brand and weight are averaged, and then the wear is normalized for mileage across all the different brands and weights I've collected. There are a number of older oils which are not on this chart because of formulation changes, such as the older RP and M1 blends, and some G5 PP blends as examples. What is reported here are the current formulations which are on sale, and how they compare to the collected averages for each wear metal. Red cells indicate more higher than one SD from the average, green cells indicate one SD lower than the average wear, and gray cells indicate wear within the SD.

Will

 

[JimPghPA]

Will, THANKS for the oil info. GC looks very good.

 

[buster]

Thanks Will!

 

[Nederlander75]

Very nice Buster! Always posting for the sake of debate and education.

 

[Ibrahim]

Thank you...I wonder how would 5W-30 Valvoline SynPower would have performed?

It is a direct competitor of PP and HP!

cannot help but NOTICE, Red Line 10W40 did so horrible...unbeleivable for what is COSTS!!

 

[postjeeprcr]

Originally Posted By: Resolute
Hi Buster,

Thank you for the kind words and welcome. I don't visit this site much and am sorry not to have responded sooner.

I don't really make recommendations on oils, since it seems you could run just about anything and be alright with a normal drain interval. However, here is a comparison chart I have made for VQ35DE engine oil analysis. I considered over 100 UOA results from this engine when calculating the average wear amount for each metal per brand. Every brand and weight are averaged, and then the wear is normalized for mileage across all the different brands and weights I've collected. There are a number of older oils which are not on this chart because of formulation changes, such as the older RP and M1 blends, and some G5 PP blends as examples. What is reported here are the current formulations which are on sale, and how they compare to the collected averages for each wear metal. Red cells indicate more higher than one SD from the average, green cells indicate one SD lower than the average wear, and gray cells indicate wear within the SD.

Will


Yhis information comes from where?

 

[Resolute]

Most of the UOA's are from 350Z owners, all of whom have the VQ35DE engine and have been keeping a running log of their UOA's on a 350Z site. A couple of G35 owners and VQ Altima owners, like Nederlander75 two posts above, have also been kind enough to contribute.

Will

 

[Steve S]

What is the miles on the engines and how was the operation? Mom driving to the mall will show different wear than a car that is trackes then a pumped engine that is tracked will show even more wear. Remember reading an article we do not really understand what we are reading about can cause improper assumptions......... Hydrolytic stability could be an issue, although Redline says it's absolutely not due to the additive package they use in conjunction with the POE base oils.

 

[BuickGN]

I have to lol at people that believe in UOAs to track wear. Redline sucks. LOL! This alone shows they just don't mean anything. Show me an engine torn down with high wear running Redline and I'll believe it. Until then they're a joke at "measuring" wear and determining which oil is best.

 

[buster]

Update on this:

Quote:
There is an interesting article by Mike Kojima on another site (can't post the address here) that goes
into great detail about the Nissan oil. The price is about the same as Redline. Here are a couple of quotes:

"Nissan's special oil and their newly developed hydrogen free DLC coating on cam followers reduces the amount of friction produced by the valve train by a huge amount. This can make a considerable difference in fuel economy, power output and perhaps even heat generation.

What is Nissan's special oil? The oil was developed to complement Nissan's Hydrogen free DLC coating used on the cam followers in the QR25DE engine, the VQ35HR and the VQ37VHR engines. DLC stands for diamond like coating, which is an amorphous layer of carbon crystals with hard smooth properties much like diamond. Most of valve train friction is created by the interface between the cam follower and the cam lobe. DLC is very slippery stuff and Nissan uses it to reduce valvetrain friction to improve fuel economy, reduce emission and increase power.

Nissan, in their search for improving oils frictional properties, figured out a way to substitute ultra hard nano particles for the normal chemical friction modifiers adding some interesting molecular twists. Again due to the convoluted nature of Nissan’s white papers and patents, its hard to guess exactly what the nano particles are but they are definitely an ultra hard industrial abrasive or bearing type ceramic and probably at least in part, nano particles of industrial diamond

Nissans super oil is around 0.5% nano particles by weight. The particles are probably around 10 nanometers in diameter, really very small! A certain percentage of the nano particles have to be carbon based, preferably single crystal synthetic diamond. The carbon content helps make the nano particles attracted to the low hydrogen DLC coating. Instead of making a slippery metallic film on bare metal parts like traditional friction modifiers, the nano particles act like atomic level miniature ball bearings, preventing metal to metal contact and reducing friction to previously unheard of levels. These nano particles are ashless if they find there way into the engine, making the oil low deposit forming for lower emissions. The Nissan super oil does most of its friction reduction in the valvetrain but it still helps in other parts of the engine, particularly in areas where metal to metal

 

[zoomzoom]

very interesting, need to get some of this magic nano dust but then again would it work as well in regular valve train?

 

[buster]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=21&article_id=8462

I read on another forum that they are having good success with the Redline 0w-40 in this car.