Oil mix for ZRX1200R, what say you?

[OilGuy2]

Got a real deal on a managers special at Advance Auto Parts for 2 qts of M1 Racing 4T 10W-40 and 2 qts of M1 V-Twin 20W-50 for $7.50 each.

I also have M1 15W-50 Silver Cap (SM/SL/SJ rating) and M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 (also SM/SL/SJ rating) that cost a little under $5 each.

Considering a mix of 1 quart of each of the above oils for a 1 year filter and OCI on 3000-5000 mile seasonal average. This reduces the cost to just $6.25/qt average while maintaining a sustained capability to the end of the next riding season.

My main objection to the 4T and V-twin oils are their high cost for the miles I ride each year. By keeping two quarts held aside, I'll have two years to find another deal again on the 4T and V-Twin.

My research on the various VOA's and UOA's indicates that the resulting mix has certain advantages over any one or even two of the oils that I could use. Any shearing effect that might occur would be offset by the cooler weather that occurs in the fall and may even be prevented to some degree by the support received by the other oils.

5W-40 MI Turbo Diesel Truck
10W-40 MI Racing 4T (motorcycle)
15W-50 M1 Silver Cap
20W-50 MI V-Twin (motorcycle)

Effective weight 12.5W-45

New oil and filter to be put into service late November.
Riding season: April through November.
Location: Central Massachusetts

Owners Manual recommends API SE,SF,SG, or SH,SJ JASO MA SAE 10W-40 but lighter 10W-30 or heavier 20W-50 allowable depending on conditions of use. The sump requires 3.7 US qts to fill with a filter change.

Would like to read the collective opinion

and any alternative recommendations.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I have mixed M1R4T with ash synpower 5w30 in my yaris and that worked good - improved the synpower enough to leave in for the full 5k oci - OTW I was going to take it out. Then on the next OCI I mixed some 10w40 syntec on top of 5w30 syntec that was acting strange and watery and noisey in the engine. These two oils hated each other and the whole OC had to be dumped. I guess some stuff works and others dont. Given the TINY cost savings (price of a couple gals of gas!) I would just use pure 4t. This is mobil's last 100% REAL synthectic base stock oil with a -54 pour-point(AFAIK). I would not dilute/mix it. But, if you want to get all frankensteiny for Halloween - go for it. Just tell us if its a boo-BOO down the road. Anayways, Have fun and keep the rubber side DOWN.

 

[OilGuy2]

Ha, ha! Funny answer.

In the BLEND I propose, there would be 5,10,15 and 20 wt group III and group IV base stocks, with some group V esters.

If I eliminate the M1 TDT 5W-40 and M1 15W-50, the group III 5W an 15W base stocks are lost, along with some specialized esters, and also lost is the TDT 5W-40's diesel detergent package and tough engine lubrication, as well as Mobil's stated emphasis on legacy valve train protection with the M1 15W-50.

The ZRX motor is a 1980's engine design with flat tappets riding the cam lobes such that valve springs push back with a mechanical advantage. The cylinder bores are NIKASIL plated (nickel-silicon-carbide)

like an aircraft engine so the key to longevity with these bikes is to reduce valve train wear.

The M1 TDT 5W-40 and M1 15W-50 bring characteristics to the oil fill that are not emphasized in the M1 Racing 4T or M1 V-Twin packages.

It sounds like I would be paying more money for less protection if I went straight M1 Racing 4T.

It would be simpler, but caring for the motorcycle in the best way possible is what I'm after, and is the information that most visitors seek when they access this website.

What would sticking with just one oil, at higher cost, accomplish?

The 3000-5000 mile end-of-season OCI with new filter would protect the motor during storage and provide fresh blended oil with superior protection for the next season at lower cost, while meeting factory OCI recommendations.

In this instance, doesn't it appear that the most expensive lubricants would not provide the best possible lubrication and protection and a "blend" of available products could do a better job at lower cost?

I expected someone could make a strong argument to use Shell Rotella 5W-40 group III with M1 Racing 4T and V-Twin oils. I also have a gallon of the CI-4+ Rotella Synthetic and that thought has occurred to me.

The API requires that oils bearing the API symbol have to be completely compatible and mixable with all other API approved oils, so then what are the reasons behind Oil Apartheid other than fear?

At this point, I am Dr. Frankenstein.

 

[RWEST]

Quote:
group III and group IV base stocks, with some group V esters.

VERY bad idea - at the least, you'll create base-stock conflicts, and you know the possible permutations of THAT

; at the worst, the mixture will solidify in the crankcase.

The above is obviously in jest, as a read of your post appears to require. You DO realize that today's lubes are head/shoulders above what was available, and used routinely for 100's of thousands of miles, when the design was first introduced back in the 80's, right? Any of the lubes you mention will work just fine, as would any of the HDEO's out there..

If it was me I'd throw some M1 15-50 or 10-40HM in there and ride away happily.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I think you made some assumptions that are not proofed. In a bike you want minimal detergency - its a "race" engine and should be treated as such. Diesel Detergents and soot binders other than ZDDP will compete with the AW characteristics of the ZDDP. When I've done mixing in the past it has only been by LUCK or ACCIDENT that the cocktail was better than the single oil. I am NOT a fan of PAO or GRPII basestocks - at least the chemistry I've become familiar with in PCMO GF4. Just let us know how it works out performance wise - you prob cant tell us wear wise - unless you run a race filter with a >1 mil seive for comprehensive particle counting.

 

[boraticus]

"its a "race" engine and should be treated as such."

Where does this wild misconception come from? Not to be condescending but that's pure c r a p!

Certainly a ZRX1200R is a high performance engine. However, if used for its intended purpose, it's designed and built to run 100K miles or more without significant work. A few valve/clutch/chain adjustments and regular maintenance. That would be about it.

A race engine is designed and constructed to be light, powerful and torn down/rebuilt every so many races. No high performance road going production motorcycle engines require such intense maintenance unless heavily modified for race purposes.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Thats why "race" is in quotes. I consider any engine > 70hp/L to be High Performance. I have never seen 100K miles out of a 100Hp+/L engine run as intended. You feel high detergency blend is good for cam wear?
- correction: I my post above it is supposed to be " ... PAO and GRPiii ...)

 

[boraticus]

Your unusual perspective of what constitutes a "race" engine likely would be contested by anyone with even minimal mechanical knowledge.

High output engines in road going motorcycles are very common these days. There are huge numbers of 600 cc bikes cranking out in excess of 120 h.p. as well as larger displacement bikes producing much more power. Whether you've seen it or not, those same high output engines are capable of attaining very high mileage provided they're properly maintained and used for their intended purpose. Despite their ability to produce reliable, high horse power numbers, they are NOT race engines. Accordingly, reasonably priced off the shelf oil, be it dino or synthetic will provide more than adequate lubrication.

 

[OilGuy2]

Any of the lubes you mention will work just fine, as would any of the HDEO's out there..

If it was me I'd throw some M1 15-50 or 10-40HM in there and ride away happily.

[/quote]

Good Advice! I've noticed that the M1 10-40 HM is an SL/SJ oil and not the "new/improved" (but reduced additive package) SM.

Yes, I agree that the lubricants are way, way better than those available just 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure my concerns border on the obsessive-compulsive...like most oil nuts.

It also occurs to me that the 12.5W-45 BLEND can also be obtained with the two you proposed rather inexpensively.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Thats why "race" is in quotes. I consider any engine > 70hp/L to be High Performance. I have never seen 100K miles out of a 100Hp+/L engine run as intended. You feel high detergency blend is good for cam wear?
- correction: I my post above it is supposed to be " ... PAO and GRPiii ...)


Hey Arco, I'm OK and you're OK.

A little history on the ZRX's powerplant: It was originally designed as a racing engine and with Eddie Lawson in control in 1981 and 1982, it took Motorcycling's "Daytona". It also won Daytona in 1984 and 1985.

Kawasaki designed several motorcycles using different versions of the engine of which the ZX-11 was the most famous because it was the fastest production motorcycle you could buy through 1998.

In 1999, Suzuki came out with the 1299cc fuel injected Hayabusa. Kawasaki retired the ZX-11 and modified the engine to market it as the 1065cc ZRX "town bike" with great potential to be whatever the owner wanted it to be.

Kawasaki removed the cast iron liners in 2002, plated the bores with Nikasil and bumped it up to 1164cc, tuning it for torque output while beefing up the frame and running gear. The larger ZRX netted 122HP at the rear wheel in stock form.

With one of several excellent aftermarket exhaust systems installed, easy mods to the airbox and a stage 3 jet kit the motor will produce 140HP at the rear wheel on regular grade pump gas.

There are ZRX owners who have already passed 100,000 miles and I know of one who is approaching 150,000 miles. One of the 100,000 mile riders has had his turbocharged since 30,000 miles and its a daily driver. He has dynoed over 200HP at the rear wheel.

The motor has not one but TWO oil pumps with huge oil lines feeding the engine. It is water cooled, thermostatically controlled, with tremendous reserves for both cooling and lubrication.

In spite of its power and race heritage, the overall design is so generous it can be maintained as a serviceable daily driver with conventional oil change intervals just like a car.

The three main concerns are as follows:

1)obtain top-notch valve train lubrication
2)consider transmission's shearing effect on oil
3)be aware of wet clutch sensitivity to friction modifiers
4)shifting difficulty means the oil will require replacement

Your recommendation reasonably satisfied the above but in order for it to be competitive economically, it would be necessary to carry M1 Racing 4T over the winter into a second season. Problem is most motorcyclists would be uncomfortable with that long an OCI. I'll do some research and see what I can find out about it.

 

[jsharp]

Your Kawasaki engine history needs a little work.

The '81 and '82 engines were 8 valve air cooled inline 4's. They had twin cams with a center roller cam chain and direct shim/tappet valve actuation. They were the final descendants of the original 903cc Z1 engine.

I owned a '73 Z1 and later an '81 fuel injected GPZ-1100. I was road racing a GPZ-550 at the time.

The modern water cooled engines with a side cam chain, rocker actuated valves, etc. didn't appear until 1984 in the 900 Ninja and didn't grow to 1000 cc's until 1986.

To your original point, I doubt any oil mix you come up with will work any better than Mobil Racing 4T 10W-40 or Amsoil MCF. But, you might try it and do a few UOA's to compare.

 

[heavyhitter]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
ZX-11 was the most famous because it was the fastest production motorcycle you could buy through 1998.




The fastest bike in 1990 was the ZX-11, but from 1991 -1998 the fastesr was the Blackbird 1100XX until 1999 which was pasted by the Hayabusa

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Your unusual perspective of what constitutes a "race" engine likely would be contested by anyone with even minimal mechanical knowledge.

High output engines in road going motorcycles are very common these days. There are huge numbers of 600 cc bikes cranking out in excess of 120 h.p. as well as larger displacement bikes producing much more power. Whether you've seen it or not, those same high output engines are capable of attaining very high mileage provided they're properly maintained and used for their intended purpose. Despite their ability to produce reliable, high horse power numbers, they are NOT race engines. Accordingly, reasonably priced off the shelf oil, be it dino or synthetic will provide more than adequate lubrication.
How about a contribution to the OP post instead of attacking me or are you just trolling? The litre class zuki and kawi motors can be and are raced regularly with minimal mods. In fact, I just did a valve clearance adjustment on my co-workers old GSX-R 750 this summer. Nice engine with sprocketed cam chain guide. You cant run GF4 energy conserving oil in these engines - for long.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I've owned 3/4 litre Yamaha genesis 5v and old kawi GPZ750 and some classic street oil burners. You get to the point where you have too much power and too tall gearing for enjoyable street riding. I prefer the 0.6 litre bike around town and detuned litre class with tall hoops for highway commuting.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

To get back to the original question, The only two oils I would mix would be the 4T and Vtwin 20w-50 since they have similar chemistry and are honest to goodness 100% pure synthetic basestocks PAO/POE/AN. Then, for next oc you could mix the TDT and the Silver cap and tell us how it goes

BTW the SL rated oil are absolutely better than the SM - since you get the SM improved basestocks with the SL or stronger additisation. The killer oil that slaughters any of this stuff previously mentioned would be FUCHS Silkolene Pro-S, but not for long drain. All said I dont like thick PAO synthetic on the street at all.

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Your unusual perspective of what constitutes a "race" engine likely would be contested by anyone with even minimal mechanical knowledge.

High output engines in road going motorcycles are very common these days. There are huge numbers of 600 cc bikes cranking out in excess of 120 h.p. as well as larger displacement bikes producing much more power. Whether you've seen it or not, those same high output engines are capable of attaining very high mileage provided they're properly maintained and used for their intended purpose. Despite their ability to produce reliable, high horse power numbers, they are NOT race engines. Accordingly, reasonably priced off the shelf oil, be it dino or synthetic will provide more than adequate lubrication.
How about a contribution to the OP post instead of attacking me or are you just trolling? The litre class zuki and kawi motors can be and are raced regularly with minimal mods. In fact, I just did a valve clearance adjustment on my co-workers old GSX-R 750 this summer. Nice engine with sprocketed cam chain guide. You cant run GF4 energy conserving oil in these engines - for long.



It would appear that in your haste to impress yourself, you may have overlooked the following:

" Accordingly, reasonably priced off the shelf oil, be it dino or synthetic will provide more than adequate lubrication. "

How many "race" engines are you aware of that are designed and built to run in excess of 100K miles? Better yet, how many high performance street bike owners tear down and rebuild their "race" engines every week or so?

They're high performance street bike engines unless considerably modified for race purposes.

However, considering your adamant, if not unrealistic pursuit to proclaim street bike engines as "race" engines, we'll make the concession that any engine used in any type of race (street light to street light for instance) must be a "race engine" installed in a race bike!

I saw a couple kids the other day, drag racing their "race" mopeds. They qualify right?

 

[whitesands]

Just offering a humble little clarification...The potential exists for higher additives with a previous rating but it doesn't always guarantee it..There are SM's that have stronger levels than oils going back to SG...Really it takes comparing them individually to find out for sure...When you start thinking about all the nuances, variables, and ranges with oil it becomes a tedious subject.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Your Kawasaki engine history needs a little work.

The '81 and '82 engines were 8 valve air cooled inline 4's. They had twin cams with a center roller cam chain and direct shim/tappet valve actuation. They were the final descendants of the original 903cc Z1 engine.

I owned a '73 Z1 and later an '81 fuel injected GPZ-1100. I was road racing a GPZ-550 at the time.

The modern water cooled engines with a side cam chain, rocker actuated valves, etc. didn't appear until 1984 in the 900 Ninja and didn't grow to 1000 cc's until 1986.

To your original point, I doubt any oil mix you come up with will work any better than Mobil Racing 4T 10W-40 or Amsoil MCF. But, you might try it and do a few UOA's to compare.


Sorry about any inaccuracy...it was my honest recollection but apparently some Kawasaki wishful thinking or marketing hype was dovetailed into what I recall reading.

Thank you for the details and your answer on oils.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: heavyhitter
Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
ZX-11 was the most famous because it was the fastest production motorcycle you could buy through 1998.




The fastest bike in 1990 was the ZX-11, but from 1991 -1998 the fastesr was the Blackbird 1100XX until 1999 which was pasted by the Hayabusa

Ouch! You know I do believe you are right about the Blackbird...a very slick and fast machine. Perhaps the phrasing should have been "the fastest production Kawasaki you could buy"...

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
To get back to the original question, The only two oils I would mix would be the 4T and Vtwin 20w-50 since they have similar chemistry and are honest to goodness 100% pure synthetic basestocks PAO/POE/AN. Then, for next oc you could mix the TDT and the Silver cap and tell us how it goes

BTW the SL rated oil are absolutely better than the SM - since you get the SM improved basestocks with the SL or stronger additisation. The killer oil that slaughters any of this stuff previously mentioned would be FUCHS Silkolene Pro-S, but not for long drain. All said I dont like thick PAO synthetic on the street at all.


After further study of the MSDS's on the four oils I learned that the M1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 has phosphorodithoic acid/alkyl esters and zinc salts (ZDDP) that are also included as part of the M1 Racing 4T 10W-40's additive package.

Also the M1 Racing 4T 10W-40, M1 V-Twin 20W-50, and M1 15W-50 all have diphenylamine, ZDDP, and phenol-4,4,methylenebis(2,6-bis(1,1-dimethylethyl) listed on their MSDS's.

All four oils' MSDS's list "CONTAINS: Synthetic Base Oils" whereas the M1 10w-40 High Mileage (a 5th oil I've looked at) list "CONTAINS: Base Oils severely refined" and also "Synthetic Base Oils." The High Mileage oil does not list ZDDP on the MSDS but from the VOA and UOA analysis, it is included but in the lowered SM amounts of roughly 1000ppm Zn and 800ppm P.

The SM grade appears not to have affected ZDDP amounts in the M1 TDT 5W-40 and M1 15W-50. VOA and UOA all list zinc and phosphorous roughly equal to the V-Twin oil's 1400ppm Zn and 1100ppm P amounts which are just slightly under the Racing 4T amounts of 1500ppm Zn and 1200ppm P.

The Racing 4T, V-Twin, 15W-50 and HM oils have a small amount of friction modifying molybdenum (
All 5 Mobil 1 oils have single number ppm of silicon indicating there is an anti-foam agent present.

I guess that is enough for now. Thank you all for your input and thank you Mobil for not hiding the MSDS's too well. I went to Mobil Norway and logged-in as "English/USA" to find them.
Interestingly, there are three MSDS's for Racing 4T in 10W-40, 15W-50 and 20W-50 grades.