Gasoline direct injection and oil

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I'm thinking (after reading here) that it may not be a bad idea to do frequent intake cleaning to keep the valves clean just in case. You know, spray cleaner in there with the motor running. The air should carry the cleaner across the valves. I don't think I have any issues yet - but I can't tell w/o looking inside the engine - which I am not going to tear apart to do.
 
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Look at this build up on the intake valves of an Audi DI engine:

That photo looks like it is from a very low mileage car. Here are some with higher mileage:
glivalves.jpg

4cylindervalves.jpg


Here are some treatment methods copied from my post in JAGs bmw thread

Here is a video of the BG induction service that Crew219 found on VW vortex http://www.vimeo.com/3989681

Also, here are the techniques I know of to deal with valve deposits (from the audi/Mikeinaustin thread):

Some very easy/low cost preventative options that can help but will not solve the DI valve deposit problems:

1) Use a low volatility and good cleaning oil (cost: additional $5-$10 per oil change)
2) Seafoam, lubro moly valve cleaner, water, etc. through the intake at every oil change (cost: $3.50-$10)
3) Regular italian tuneups (cost: gas)
4) Catch can (all kinds of flavors out there) (cost: $30-$300)
5) Fuel injector cleaner in the gas to deal with fuel injector deposits (will not help with intake valve or intake deposits) (cost:$5-$10)

More difficult/expensive "helping but not solving options"

6) BG induction service or similar (cost: $135-$250?)
7) water/meth injection (cost: ???)
8) remove intake and clean valves every 50k or so (cost: ????)

Some one-time-fix-the-problem options:

1) bypass pcv and route to exhaust (search for saaber2 thread "bypassing pcv") (cost $125-$175)
2) Run a catch can that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?)? may have smell or freezing issues?) (cost: $300?)
3) Run a "down tube" or "road tube" that vents to atmosphere ((may increase build up acids in oil due to lack of vacuum in evacuating crankcase gasses (but that is unknown)?) (cost: $25 -$50)
 
This makes me not want to even consider buying any car with direct injection. Which begs the the question, has Ford hitched their wagon to a doomed technology with direct injection. Or, will there be improved, easier and more economical ways to keep the valves and intake clean? Just wondering.

$135-$250 every 15k for the BG cleaning!
31.gif
Not for me.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
This makes me not want to even consider buying any car with direct injection. Which begs the the question, has Ford hitched their wagon to a doomed technology with direct injection. Or, will there be improved, easier and more economical ways to keep the valves and intake clean? Just wondering.

$135-$250 every 15k for the BG cleaning!
31.gif
Not for me.


$8 for a can of Amsoil PowerFoam and $8 for a bottle of Amsoil PI every 15k. That's a small price to pay.
 
According to reports the EGR is not the problem, it's the oil in the PCV gasses. Venting to atmosphere gets us back to pre 1960 cars and all the road oil odors from that era.
 
GM is not the Messiah of automotive design GMBOY! If anything they have proven time and time again that they can find new ways to mess up proven idea's and designs! Look wht they did to the Buick 3.8 with their oh so bright plastic Intake manifold with coolant and ehaust gas's flowing through it! Never mind that the engine was almost bullet proof prior to that brain storm!

Most inovation and invention does not happen at the cooperate level! Most earth shattering inventions come from regular guys working at home in their basement or garage. Then after they patent it if they are lucky they can sell or license the idea to a large corperation!

It is ignorant to the extreme to think that just because a car company does not do something or think of something that the idea must be bad!In fact inthe last 20 years GM is usualy the last one to the table when it comes to new trends and new technology. Only after everyone else has done something do they normaly follow the rest.

In fact if GM knew so much they wouldnot have signed all their idiotic contracts that they singed int he 1970's and 1980's with the Unions that was and is still breaking their bakes with legacy cost. You would think they would have designed and built vechiles they could sell with out deep rebates and discounts! So please do not use GM as the source of all that is good in the automotive world!They have violated every sound business practice for years and in college many of my professors that used to work for GM and retired from them used them as the example of what not to do! Many of them predicted exactly what has happened as far back as 1993 when I went off to college!
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
This makes me not want to even consider buying any car with direct injection. Which begs the the question, has Ford hitched their wagon to a doomed technology with direct injection. Or, will there be improved, easier and more economical ways to keep the valves and intake clean? Just wondering.

$135-$250 every 15k for the BG cleaning!
31.gif
Not for me.


DI engine can run at higher compression and better fuel economy than PI car.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
GM is not the Messiah of automotive design GMBOY! If anything they have proven time and time again that they can find new ways to mess up proven idea's and designs! Look wht they did to the Buick 3.8 with their oh so bright plastic Intake manifold with coolant and ehaust gas's flowing through it! Never mind that the engine was almost bullet proof prior to that brain storm!

Most inovation and invention does not happen at the cooperate level! Most earth shattering inventions come from regular guys working at home in their basement or garage. Then after they patent it if they are lucky they can sell or license the idea to a large corperation!

It is ignorant to the extreme to think that just because a car company does not do something or think of something that the idea must be bad!In fact inthe last 20 years GM is usualy the last one to the table when it comes to new trends and new technology. Only after everyone else has done something do they normaly follow the rest.

In fact if GM knew so much they wouldnot have signed all their idiotic contracts that they singed int he 1970's and 1980's with the Unions that was and is still breaking their bakes with legacy cost. You would think they would have designed and built vechiles they could sell with out deep rebates and discounts! So please do not use GM as the source of all that is good in the automotive world!They have violated every sound business practice for years and in college many of my professors that used to work for GM and retired from them used them as the example of what not to do! Many of them predicted exactly what has happened as far back as 1993 when I went off to college!



[censored] what got into you?
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
GM is not the Messiah of automotive design GMBOY! If anything they have proven time and time again that they can find new ways to mess up proven idea's and designs! Look wht they did to the Buick 3.8 with their oh so bright plastic Intake manifold with coolant and ehaust gas's flowing through it! Never mind that the engine was almost bullet proof prior to that brain storm!

Most inovation and invention does not happen at the cooperate level! Most earth shattering inventions come from regular guys working at home in their basement or garage. Then after they patent it if they are lucky they can sell or license the idea to a large corperation!

It is ignorant to the extreme to think that just because a car company does not do something or think of something that the idea must be bad!In fact inthe last 20 years GM is usualy the last one to the table when it comes to new trends and new technology. Only after everyone else has done something do they normaly follow the rest.

In fact if GM knew so much they wouldnot have signed all their idiotic contracts that they singed int he 1970's and 1980's with the Unions that was and is still breaking their bakes with legacy cost. You would think they would have designed and built vechiles they could sell with out deep rebates and discounts! So please do not use GM as the source of all that is good in the automotive world!They have violated every sound business practice for years and in college many of my professors that used to work for GM and retired from them used them as the example of what not to do! Many of them predicted exactly what has happened as far back as 1993 when I went off to college!



[censored] what got into you?
21.gif



I was thinking the same thing? BTW I will not buy a truck if it is not a GM truck even though we just found out today that we have to replace the PLASTIC distributor in our 200K mile 98 K2500 due to it being worn out. Plastic distributor? [censored] is that?

P.S. I want a grand tour of the truck plant if I am ever in texas!
 
Originally Posted By: ProStreetCamaro
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
GM is not the Messiah of automotive design GMBOY! If anything they have proven time and time again that they can find new ways to mess up proven idea's and designs! Look wht they did to the Buick 3.8 with their oh so bright plastic Intake manifold with coolant and ehaust gas's flowing through it! Never mind that the engine was almost bullet proof prior to that brain storm!

Most inovation and invention does not happen at the cooperate level! Most earth shattering inventions come from regular guys working at home in their basement or garage. Then after they patent it if they are lucky they can sell or license the idea to a large corperation!

It is ignorant to the extreme to think that just because a car company does not do something or think of something that the idea must be bad!In fact inthe last 20 years GM is usualy the last one to the table when it comes to new trends and new technology. Only after everyone else has done something do they normaly follow the rest.

In fact if GM knew so much they wouldnot have signed all their idiotic contracts that they singed int he 1970's and 1980's with the Unions that was and is still breaking their bakes with legacy cost. You would think they would have designed and built vechiles they could sell with out deep rebates and discounts! So please do not use GM as the source of all that is good in the automotive world!They have violated every sound business practice for years and in college many of my professors that used to work for GM and retired from them used them as the example of what not to do! Many of them predicted exactly what has happened as far back as 1993 when I went off to college!



[censored] what got into you?
21.gif



I was thinking the same thing? BTW I will not buy a truck if it is not a GM truck even though we just found out today that we have to replace the PLASTIC distributor in our 200K mile 98 K2500 due to it being worn out. Plastic distributor? [censored] is that?

P.S. I want a grand tour of the truck plant if I am ever in texas!


I see your're from MD. I am too, just moved to Tx when the Baltimore plant closed. Oh and my offer of a tour is open to all of BITOG. Hey - latest news by the way is that our plant has a new plant manager...we got the plant manager from Bowling Green (Corvette planr). He started last week.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic

$8 for a can of Amsoil PowerFoam and $8 for a bottle of Amsoil PI every 15k. That's a small price to pay.


No way every 15k is going to cut it on the 2.0FSI anyway. No way. Using every oil change at 5k may help though. Best solution is to eliminate any return of pcv gunk to the intake tract and solve the problem instead of treating the symptoms.

f.e fsi valves at 22k miles
valve2pn3.gif
 
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Quote:
DI engine can run at higher compression and better fuel economy than PI car.
I watched saaber1's video, which is very informative regarding DI. I understand there are obvious advantages to it, the question for me is, do those outweigh the negatives shown here and the practical application.

Too many unaswered questions regarding valve and intake build-up for me.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
DI engine can run at higher compression and better fuel economy than PI car.
I watched saaber1's video, which is very informative regarding DI. I understand there are obvious advantages to it, the question for me is, do those outweigh the negatives shown here and the practical application.

Too many unaswered questions regarding valve and intake build-up for me.


I think DI is the inevitable wave of the future as manufacturer's look to increase efficiency. They just don't have all the bugs worked out of DI yet (except for maybe lexus/toyota with their additional injector in intake). Just have a plan of attack for the valves and it's no big deal. Every engine and car IMO has weak spots. knowing about those weak spots and doing proactive maintenance (or better yet permanent fixes such as routing pcv gasses to exhaust) is key IMO.
 
This^^^^^^

I wondered why Toyota has both regular and direct injection on their engines. I bet it is to solve the valve deposite problem.
 
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When I changed the oil yesterday on my 2008 CTS with the DI engine I sprayed a can of Throttle body cleaner into the intake with the motor running. So easy, didn't have to take the air duct off either, there's a 1/4" vacuum line right there that I just stuck the straw in and went. NOTHING came out the tailpipe. I mean no soot, no smoke - nothing. So either the car is still clean inside (20k miles) and hasn't carboned up yet or the throttle body cleaner isn't strong enough or I'm not hitting the valves. I would think the cleaner mixed with the air going in would clean the valves. I dosed it pretty good to - just to the point of dying a few times.
 
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Are there any long-term negative effects from this build-up on the valves? I mean, yeah it looks really nasty and it's kind of unsettling having that much junk on there, but will it have any real noticable negative effects on the engine's performance?
 
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Are there any long-term negative effects from this build-up on the valves? I mean, yeah it looks really nasty and it's kind of unsettling having that much junk on there, but will it have any real noticable negative effects on the engine's performance?


Yes, the effects are extremely noticeable. In the case of the FSI, the engine depends on correct tumble flow for proper combustion. Incomplete combustion leads to all kinds of deposits, rings, fuel injectors etc. poor start, rough idle, etc. Clogged tumble flaps (perhaps resulting in tumble flap motor problems) also. Also results in misfiring requiring coil pack replacement and a host of other problems. Many of these are described in the VW patent for the engine.

It's really pretty simple. These DI engines are amazingly efficient and produce lots of power with a small displacement. However they require precision and cleanliness to run right. A gummed up engine leads to lots of secondary bad effects. Do proper maint. or eliminate valve deposit problem and these engines are a joy. Rely on a know-nothing dealer and hide your head in the sand and they are a pain. Ooops, accidently stepped on soapbox!
 
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