Motorcycle Chains!

[wileyE]

Railroad observation is interesting, but riddle me this? Why do my sprockets wear out? And why, when I have my sprockets hard coated with an industial solid lube do they last at least twice as long?

Turn the "way back" dial to when oring chains first came on the market. Afraid to say I'm codger enough to have been around. They were marketed as "lubeless" chains are better than sliced bread. Guys bought them and didn't touch them with oil only to have sprockets wear out and kinks in the links. The benefits were there, but they quickly learned they still needed some maintenance, maybe not the slobbering and soaking in witches brew of the old chains, but some attention was required.

Chains wear because the pins wear, that's why they get longer and start to mismatch the pitch of the sprocket. Pins wear because of lack of lubrication. There IS grease installed at the factory before the links and orings are fitted, often with a vacume process. Not sure why anyone would think they are made dry?

Screwin around with different chain lubes is part of the rites or motorcycling IMO. I wouldn't try and influence anyone in what to use or not use and cheat them out of all the fun I had through the years. Before o ring chains this topic would have all sorts of weird tricks and tips posted.

 

[rayray22]

I have seen my mates chain on his KTM with rollers worn through, either from the inside or outside, I'm not sure. His chain was snapped and I had to tow him out.
I'm sure that if chains didn't need rollers then the manufacturers wouldn't put them on.
The train wheels need friction, motorcycle chains don't.
Are you sure train wheels don't wear out?
Car tyres have "rolling friction" and they certainly wear out.
I'll only ever put WD40 on a chain to dry it after a wash. It's not a permanent type lube as in it evaporates.

 

[Jaybird]

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chains dont need lube where the roller and pin or roller and sprocket touch.

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Perhaps before you start debunking the advise and recommendations of others concerning chains, you should actually learn how chains work and how they are constructed.

First off, you have a good point that rollers do decrease the friction between the working face of the tooth and the chain. But, it is not a completely frictionless point. And as such needs to be lubricated. Perhaps you should write the chain mfgs and tell them to stop recommending that the lubrication is needed to help that particular friction point? Surely they are too missing the point, and you can straighten them out.

As far as the roller and the pin...never the two do meet.
The roller articulates on the bushing's OD...the pin articulates within the bushing's ID.

And I have worked with chains for many years now, and I have seen multiple occasions where the rollers were worn.
Usually on the chains of those who have few clues at all about chain dynamics and maintenance.

If you have never seen such a failure, maybe you haven't seen many chains in service? (shrug)

As far as chains only needing a light lube or a water dispersant....that is probably the worst advise I've seen in this thread. It complies with conventional wisdom, but conventional wisdom is often very ignorant.

 

[Jaybird]

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It's not a permanent type lube as (it) evaporates.

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People often have the misconception that if the lubricant has evaporated, and you don't see a "wet glisten", then the lubricant is not there. Hardly the case in reality, IF you are using a lubricant instead of a light duty water dispersant.
True, there is very little to aid lubrication in a spray of WD-40, but dry-film lubricants don't need to have a wet look to them to be completely effective.

I suggest you do a search and study up on "barrier" or "boundary" type lubrication, as these are the types of lubricants that dry-films utilize. The wet look they have at first is only the carrier, and the carriers have very little lubricity. It's the products left over after the fluid has dried that protects the chain from wear.

 

[rayray22]

I see what you're getting at Jaybird and I agree.
One of my criteria for judging a lube that stays is to check the outer surface of the roller after a fast ride/or long ride. If the rollers are blackish and I can get an oily smear on my finger, that to me is good. The best one that I have found so far is BP's with moly, but it's also the messiest.
I will be finding a good dry type lube after what I've read here.

 

[ccdhowell]

I use Torco chain lube on my atvs. it is very messy, sprays on white, maybe contains some lithium, don't know, but it turns to black when used. Seems to be doing a nice job as chain is guey with grease. Only problem I have is that it slings a all over everything. It doesn't dry, its a wet lube and its messy.

 

[Jaybird]

Lybricants that utilize the hydrodynamic regime of friction protection requirte that the fluid film be kept at a minimal thickness to be effective. I think this is between .001"-.002", depending on the type of lubricant.
To remain effective, the fluid must continue to provide that thickness between the mating surfaces. Motor oil will simply not hold that thickness in an open area like a chain, although it would be plety of prtection if it could.
Enter in the tackifiers that are added to fluid films to help keep the lube in place so the required thickness can be held for a longer period.
These tackifiers also cause problems. The cleaning issue is soon apparent to those who use such products. Also thickner rich lubes will also grab onto dirt and hold it, allowing it to wear at the surfaces.
Another issue with tackifier rich fluid film lubes is that they can actually set up on each side of the pin/bushing area before the lube has even reached the friction points. Often times they can create an air "bubble" if you will, at the friction point, with fast set goo on each side of the entry points that blocks any further applications of lubricant.

The answer to all the problems of chain lubrication is to use a heavily fortified dry-film, that does not depend on the hydrodynamic regime of lubrication.

Btw...we cannot see the friction points of a chain, so a visual is in no way an indicator of how well a lubricant is performing. All you can tell by sight is that you are maybe protecting the outside surfaces (sideplates, roller OD, etc) from corrosion.

 

[1sttruck]

With an O ring chain you just gotta put up with however long the grease will last behind the O rings and replace it when it starts kinking too bad. You still need to clean and / or lube the chain to keep the rollers rolling or you'll chew up sprockets. I found that not matter what lube you use it works best if you can take the chain off, just link up an old chain and roll off the newer one, and after lubing the chain roll each roller to distribute the lube and exercise each link until it moves freely. You'll see how badly it's kinking, and can extend the chain life a bit by redistributing some grease behind the O rings. If you don't want to take the chain off at least put enough slack into it so that you can exercise the links by bending them them back and forth a bit.

Lubing this way a good heavy gear oil seems to work best, these day's I'd try something like M1 75W140, or maybe a moly oil additive. It'll get to where it's needed, but it's also messy as it'll spray stinky gear oil everywhere. Some of the commercial chain lubes work ok but you need to spray a small section and work in it before it thickens, making for a mess during application.

 

[Drew2000]

Railroad car wheels most certainly wear out. The are lathed fairly regularly to maintain the wheel tread profile. Also railroads DO lubricate the track with automatic flange lubers in curvy areas, and hi-rail vehicle mounted equipment for other areas. Interesting article from Railway Age Magazine.
>>>The use of lubricants, or friction modifiers, and well-matched wheel/rail profiles that keep the wheels rolling instead of skew sliding can help keep friction and heat at the interface under control.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_7_201/ai_64337988

Drew

 

[ottomatic]

http://www.sidewindersprockets.com/toc.htm

 

[Ethan]

I've run an oil that Molekule formulated for my scottoiler a while ago, haven't had to adjust the chain in ~8k miles.

 

[Trondos]

Suzuki states in their owner manuals that one should use kerosene for cleaning, and gear oil for lubrication. So that can`t be that foolish, I guess?

I have been using gear oil as lube when riding small trips around home, and have been bringing a can of whatever aerosol chain lube I could find when on longer trips.

My humble opinion is that the quantity of lube, or rather the frequency of applying it, is more important than the type.....but I DO have to clean my rear wheel rather often.

 

[Jaybird]

Quote:

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My humble opinion is that the quantity of lube, or rather the frequency of applying it, is more important than the type

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When using a fluid film type lubricant in an open system, such as a roller chain, the quantity is of the utmost importance...as a fluid film simply cannot maintain the required thickness to protect the asperities from wearing at one another. So you need to keep applying it for it to be effective.

Not so with a lubricant that protects using the barrier regime of lubrication, where the fluids or components are either molecularly attracted to the surfaces, or chema-absorbed into the substrate.
Fluid films, such as gear oils, simply cannot perform as effectively as barrier type lubricants in an open system.

 

[DB_Cooper]

Originally Posted By: Jaybird
Quote:
My humble opinion is that the quantity of lube, or rather the frequency of applying it, is more important than the type

When using a fluid film type lubricant in an open system, such as a roller chain, the quantity is of the utmost importance...as a fluid film simply cannot maintain the required thickness to protect the asperities from wearing at one another. So you need to keep applying it for it to be effective.

Not so with a lubricant that protects using the barrier regime of lubrication, where the fluids or components are either
molecularly attracted to the surfaces, or chema-absorbed into the substrate.
Fluid films, such as gear oils, simply cannot perform as effectively as barrier type lubricants in an open system.
Originally Posted By: Jaybird
Quote:
My humble opinion is that the quantity of lube, or rather the frequency of applying it, is more important than the type

When using a fluid film type lubricant in an open system, such as a roller chain, the quantity is of the utmost importance...as a fluid film simply cannot maintain the required thickness to protect the asperities from wearing at one another. So you need to keep applying it for it to be effective.

Not so with a lubricant that protects using the barrier regime of lubrication, where the fluids or components are either molecularly attracted to the surfaces, or chema-absorbed into the substrate.
Fluid films, such as gear oils, simply cannot perform as effectively as barrier type lubricants in an open system.


JB,

Would you classify Dupont's Teflon Multi Use Dry Wax Lubricant (blue can) as a "barrier type lubricant"?

The reason I ask is because my bike is of a vintage that has no room in the cases for an "O" ring chain. Using a regular roller type keeps me from using most of the contemporary chain lube as they are not going to penetrate down into the bearing surfaces. Too foamy and not thin enough. My problem with them is a dry chain that looks well lubricated.

Can't find a good lube to use when I'm on the road.