Damage running heavy oil
- Thread starter Fbear
- Start date
- Status
I've only HEARD of it causing stiction between rod bearings and main bearings when the ambient temp is very cold, , which basically causes what's known as a 'spun bearing'. So, yes...it CAN, but so many factors come into play that decide whether or not it WILL. Dino vs synthetic, ambient temperature, car's age & mileage, which engine you're running, etc. will all have a say in what happens when heavier oil is used.
If you're using it in hot weather, I doubt you notice a difference other than a very slight decrease in fuel mileage and slighly more time before the oil reaches the top end of the engine at startup.
If you're using it in hot weather, I doubt you notice a difference other than a very slight decrease in fuel mileage and slighly more time before the oil reaches the top end of the engine at startup.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Imo,no damage whatsoever. It`ll just slow your engine/responsiveness down a bit. I used 20W50 in my car for a long time. Went down to 10W40 awhile back and the powerband difference is amazing! I`m going to gradually go thinner,but as to how thin,I`m not sure yet.
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
Kestas
Staff member
The same thing happened when I ran 20W-50 in a 98 ZX2 Zetec engine with variable cam timing. The car would cough, sputter, and die. And the problem immediately went away, never to return (but no damage, as reported with The Honda design), when I dumped the oil and filled with 5W-30. The variable cam timing solenoid can't handle the thick oil, even in the summertime.
I can't explain why the problem doesn't present itself during the wintertime with 5W-30. But we rarely get below -10°F.
Cars aren't designed for service below -40°F. That's the lowest that components are tested for during product validation testing. If it's below -40°F and your car won't work, too bad, you've reached the design limit of your vehicle.
I can't explain why the problem doesn't present itself during the wintertime with 5W-30. But we rarely get below -10°F.
Cars aren't designed for service below -40°F. That's the lowest that components are tested for during product validation testing. If it's below -40°F and your car won't work, too bad, you've reached the design limit of your vehicle.
Just for fun, I graphed Valvolin Synpower 5W-20 and Valvoline Synpower 5W-40(used 5W for both for fairness) Up to an oil temp of 181F, the 5W-20 is in the viscosity range of a 40 grade(and higher). As temp goes up, it goes into the viscosity range of a 30 grade then to a 20 grade.
I have used Mobil 1 15W-50, in every vehicle since 1990. Some of them specked MUCH lower viscosity grades. All of them gave better than EPA average MPG, none used, leaked, or even seeped any oil. All started with no problems in Northern VA, Southern OH, Eastern KY and Northeast TN. Never an engine problem of any kind. All had engines running perfectly when traded at an average of about 180,000 miles. One with 261,000 M1 15W-50 miles, one with 214,000, still in daily use.
I have great doubt that there is any time difference in pumping up to upper engine parts. I was adjusting valves on a motorcycle engine that used 20W-50 oil. The engine was at ambient temperature and I had my wife turning the engine by hand, very little at a time. Even those much less than one complete turn gave oil being pumped out around the cam bearings. The same thing on a 1986 Toyota 22-R engine with Castrol 20W-50 and M1 15W-50, except we clicked the starter.
If a van engine calls for a 5W-20 and gives an EPA estimate of 24 MPG, and you use 15W-50 and average 27 MPG....what to think.
I have used Mobil 1 15W-50, in every vehicle since 1990. Some of them specked MUCH lower viscosity grades. All of them gave better than EPA average MPG, none used, leaked, or even seeped any oil. All started with no problems in Northern VA, Southern OH, Eastern KY and Northeast TN. Never an engine problem of any kind. All had engines running perfectly when traded at an average of about 180,000 miles. One with 261,000 M1 15W-50 miles, one with 214,000, still in daily use.
I have great doubt that there is any time difference in pumping up to upper engine parts. I was adjusting valves on a motorcycle engine that used 20W-50 oil. The engine was at ambient temperature and I had my wife turning the engine by hand, very little at a time. Even those much less than one complete turn gave oil being pumped out around the cam bearings. The same thing on a 1986 Toyota 22-R engine with Castrol 20W-50 and M1 15W-50, except we clicked the starter.
If a van engine calls for a 5W-20 and gives an EPA estimate of 24 MPG, and you use 15W-50 and average 27 MPG....what to think.
Originally Posted By: FrankN4
If a van engine calls for a 5W-20 and gives an EPA estimate of 24 MPG, and you use 15W-50 and average 27 MPG....what to think.
you think that you are doing better than the EPA testing, nothing more. if you question the oil getting up top faster, try putting a 20w50 in a NA miata. the HLA startup tick can be measured with a grandfather clock.
If a van engine calls for a 5W-20 and gives an EPA estimate of 24 MPG, and you use 15W-50 and average 27 MPG....what to think.
you think that you are doing better than the EPA testing, nothing more. if you question the oil getting up top faster, try putting a 20w50 in a NA miata. the HLA startup tick can be measured with a grandfather clock.
"If a van engine calls for a 5W-20 and gives an EPA estimate of 24 MPG, and you use 15W-50 and average 27 MPG....what to think."
Is nonsense, comparing epa to real world is one varaible change, then two would be the weight of the oil. You can't garner any information from that.
But, he has the point that matters. A 20 weight oil will be at a 40 weight viscosity for probably the first fifteen minutes you drive the car. So the idea it could do any catastrophic harm is ridiculous.
VTEC solenoid... well.... the type of people who would run a 20-50 in a Honda are the type who will do other things to have VTEC solenoid problems. So my guess would be the correlation is with the drivers, not the oil. The Honda VTEC system only checks if there is enough pressure to engage, so in theory the higher oil pressure could, over thousands of miles, cause some unforseen problems. But, vtec here in WI gets uses with really thick oil all winter and I have yet to hear of any problems. The K24 can switch cams as low as 2200 rpm, that solenoid is being used all the time even in extreme cold when any oil is thicker than 20w-50 oil at room/operating temp.
Is nonsense, comparing epa to real world is one varaible change, then two would be the weight of the oil. You can't garner any information from that.
But, he has the point that matters. A 20 weight oil will be at a 40 weight viscosity for probably the first fifteen minutes you drive the car. So the idea it could do any catastrophic harm is ridiculous.
VTEC solenoid... well.... the type of people who would run a 20-50 in a Honda are the type who will do other things to have VTEC solenoid problems. So my guess would be the correlation is with the drivers, not the oil. The Honda VTEC system only checks if there is enough pressure to engage, so in theory the higher oil pressure could, over thousands of miles, cause some unforseen problems. But, vtec here in WI gets uses with really thick oil all winter and I have yet to hear of any problems. The K24 can switch cams as low as 2200 rpm, that solenoid is being used all the time even in extreme cold when any oil is thicker than 20w-50 oil at room/operating temp.
I had a fleet account that ran Ford E450 buses with the 6.8 V10 from Vegas to Laughlin and back. The new fleet manager was ordering an engine from me and told me that when he took over, the previous manager was running 20W50 in them and they wiped out the valvetrain on three or four engines before they figured out what was wrong.
When they switched back to 5W30 the problems went away.
Another account, a tow company, fleet manager's personal truck. 1997 F150 5.4, called me to get a price on a new engine. He only had around 100k miles on it an said it was knocking and sluggish. Turns out he was running 15w40 in it because that's what they used in the tow trucks.
Sold him a Motorcraft filter and 7 quarts of 5W20 and told him to try that first. Called me up to thank me, saying noises were gone and it ran much better and much more responsive.
These are of course the same engine family. Other engines I pesonally have had ran fine on 20w50. Ford modular engines don't seem to like it.
When they switched back to 5W30 the problems went away.
Another account, a tow company, fleet manager's personal truck. 1997 F150 5.4, called me to get a price on a new engine. He only had around 100k miles on it an said it was knocking and sluggish. Turns out he was running 15w40 in it because that's what they used in the tow trucks.
Sold him a Motorcraft filter and 7 quarts of 5W20 and told him to try that first. Called me up to thank me, saying noises were gone and it ran much better and much more responsive.
These are of course the same engine family. Other engines I pesonally have had ran fine on 20w50. Ford modular engines don't seem to like it.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
I don't know much about VTEC, but its hard to figure how Dodge MDS could actually be *damaged* by this... but I can at least see the possibility for unpredictable behavior. Maybe damage too, I just don't know the mechanism.
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
I don't know much about VTEC, but its hard to figure how Dodge MDS could actually be *damaged* by this... but I can at least see the possibility for unpredictable behavior. Maybe damage too, I just don't know the mechanism.
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
Same thing with VANOS equipped BMW's in very cold conditions. The vanos system won't work with a super thick fluid in very cold conditions.
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
Same thing with VANOS equipped BMW's in very cold conditions. The vanos system won't work with a super thick fluid in very cold conditions.
I believe it depends on the engine design. At work we have a fleet of Chevy one ton trucks that are filled with 15-40 instead of 5-30. Most have 180,000 to 200,000 miles. It doesn't seem to have done any harm. In the winter some are parked outside overnight.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
Sure, but I doubt that either method, if employed, would wait for 20 minutes to enable the system. So while engine temp will reach normalized levels quickly, oil temp (and therefore visc) will still be leveling off for quite some time.
Let's say that the PCM says "well, after I reach coolant temp, I'll travel another 3 or 4 miles or 9-10 miles/9-10 minutes of operation total before enabling VVT" ..being that the oil will probably have climbed the major part of the curve to normalized temps.
If that were the case, then the time to VVT could surely be disrupted and/or altered for a certain time frame...but at a certain point much heavier oils will appear the same as the 5w-20 did at the prescribed conditional thresholds.
So the complaints should run like this:
"When I use 5w-40 and I engage VTECH it carries on for about 5 minutes before it works right. After I've driven around awhile ..it straightens out".
If I were to have a visc requirement for the stable operation of the system, then pressure would surely be the enabler. Visc and pressure tend to be exchangeable items. Too high a pressure? Not time for VVT. If they can map fuel trims/tables across the rpm range, I'm sure a given pressure at a given rpm would be a reliable indicator of acceptable visc.
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
Sure, but I doubt that either method, if employed, would wait for 20 minutes to enable the system. So while engine temp will reach normalized levels quickly, oil temp (and therefore visc) will still be leveling off for quite some time.
Let's say that the PCM says "well, after I reach coolant temp, I'll travel another 3 or 4 miles or 9-10 miles/9-10 minutes of operation total before enabling VVT" ..being that the oil will probably have climbed the major part of the curve to normalized temps.
If that were the case, then the time to VVT could surely be disrupted and/or altered for a certain time frame...but at a certain point much heavier oils will appear the same as the 5w-20 did at the prescribed conditional thresholds.
So the complaints should run like this:
"When I use 5w-40 and I engage VTECH it carries on for about 5 minutes before it works right. After I've driven around awhile ..it straightens out".
If I were to have a visc requirement for the stable operation of the system, then pressure would surely be the enabler. Visc and pressure tend to be exchangeable items. Too high a pressure? Not time for VVT. If they can map fuel trims/tables across the rpm range, I'm sure a given pressure at a given rpm would be a reliable indicator of acceptable visc.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
I don't know much about VTEC, but its hard to figure how Dodge MDS could actually be *damaged* by this... but I can at least see the possibility for unpredictable behavior. Maybe damage too, I just don't know the mechanism.
Well, I never said the failures happened in summer, in high ambient temperatures. In fact, I don't know when they failed, nor the time between when they started using it and when the solenoids failed. I think it's plausible that if you use 20W-50 in winter that high oil pressure might damage a solenoid valve that admits pressurized oil to parts of the valve train. I only said that they tried using it, and eventually had to replace the VTEC solenoids. It doesn't seem to be a failure-prone component for folks who run the recommended oil.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
On the Honda forum I'm on, some folks have damaged the valve timing (VTEC) solenoid by running something like 20W-50 in place of 5W-30. Seems to me I was reading on BITOG that the Dodge Hemi engines with variable valve timing are also not tolerant of having thicker oil.
There has to be more to it. Otherwise someone in MN/ND/SD/M1/and surely Canada would be inflicting the same damage with 5w-20. -30f to -60f can make many oils simulate 40w-70+.
Oh I don't know. Its easy enough for the PCM to inhibit the variable valve timing or cylinder deactivation until the engine has been at operating temp for a period of time long enough to put the oil within spec, ASSUMING that its the factory specified grade. Heck, its easy enough to put an oil temperature sensor in and not turn the system on until the measured oil temp is correct. But neither of those methods directly measures thickness. Running an oil that's way out of specified grade would mean that the MDS or VVT turns on thinking that the oil is thin when its actually still too thick.
I don't know much about VTEC, but its hard to figure how Dodge MDS could actually be *damaged* by this... but I can at least see the possibility for unpredictable behavior. Maybe damage too, I just don't know the mechanism.
Well, I never said the failures happened in summer, in high ambient temperatures. In fact, I don't know when they failed, nor the time between when they started using it and when the solenoids failed. I think it's plausible that if you use 20W-50 in winter that high oil pressure might damage a solenoid valve that admits pressurized oil to parts of the valve train. I only said that they tried using it, and eventually had to replace the VTEC solenoids. It doesn't seem to be a failure-prone component for folks who run the recommended oil.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Well, we're trying to rationalize this, Dave. No one here is dismissing the proposed cause and effect in how it appears. This has been a topic a few times before.
We're not holding you accountable for the reason. You're just the messenger and we're pondering the topic
It's one of those "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" ..except inverted. We need to know the true cause and not just the apparent cause of the issue since it doesn't fit the bill on that static evaluation.
We're not holding you accountable for the reason. You're just the messenger and we're pondering the topic
It's one of those "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" ..except inverted. We need to know the true cause and not just the apparent cause of the issue since it doesn't fit the bill on that static evaluation.
Not sure why I'd want to run heavy oil with the increased startup wear.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: jimvegas
I had a fleet account that ran Ford E450 buses with the 6.8 V10 from Vegas to Laughlin and back. The new fleet manager was ordering an engine from me and told me that when he took over, the previous manager was running 20W50 in them and they wiped out the valvetrain on three or four engines before they figured out what was wrong.
When they switched back to 5W30 the problems went away.
Another account, a tow company, fleet manager's personal truck. 1997 F150 5.4, called me to get a price on a new engine. He only had around 100k miles on it an said it was knocking and sluggish. Turns out he was running 15w40 in it because that's what they used in the tow trucks.
Sold him a Motorcraft filter and 7 quarts of 5W20 and told him to try that first. Called me up to thank me, saying noises were gone and it ran much better and much more responsive.
These are of course the same engine family. Other engines I pesonally have had ran fine on 20w50. Ford modular engines don't seem to like it.
Mine is running great on 5w40, what year was the truck of the guy with the 5.4L, pre or post '05 MY?
I had a fleet account that ran Ford E450 buses with the 6.8 V10 from Vegas to Laughlin and back. The new fleet manager was ordering an engine from me and told me that when he took over, the previous manager was running 20W50 in them and they wiped out the valvetrain on three or four engines before they figured out what was wrong.
When they switched back to 5W30 the problems went away.
Another account, a tow company, fleet manager's personal truck. 1997 F150 5.4, called me to get a price on a new engine. He only had around 100k miles on it an said it was knocking and sluggish. Turns out he was running 15w40 in it because that's what they used in the tow trucks.
Sold him a Motorcraft filter and 7 quarts of 5W20 and told him to try that first. Called me up to thank me, saying noises were gone and it ran much better and much more responsive.
These are of course the same engine family. Other engines I pesonally have had ran fine on 20w50. Ford modular engines don't seem to like it.
Mine is running great on 5w40, what year was the truck of the guy with the 5.4L, pre or post '05 MY?
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Not sure why I'd want to run heavy oil with the increased startup wear.
This is said a lot around here. I keep asking: where is the evidence that heavy oil increase startup wear?
Not sure why I'd want to run heavy oil with the increased startup wear.
This is said a lot around here. I keep asking: where is the evidence that heavy oil increase startup wear?
- Status
Similar threads
