Well said Overk1LL!
Howdo you defend American cars from Import lovers?
- Thread starter Popinski
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Well ,,I own a 2002 Ford superduty an a 2006 Toy Tacoma I like Ford full size pick ups and Toyota compact pickups . I try to buy made in USA with a passion as possible. It is especially hard to do these days. I do not blindly wave the flag and I would rather keep US employed first.
I don't understand why a Pro-American car buyer would feel the need to defend their buying decisions to a Pro-Import person. Neither side is right or wrong, and neither person is deserving of a reason.
No matter how some folks want to intellectualize the car buying process, it's still driven by emotion as anything else. People base their buying decisions on things that don't make sense or stand up to logic. That's human being's for ya.
You cannot rationalize an irrational buying decision. I don't care what the product or service is.
The key for the Pro-American buyer is to not respond at all in any way to the Pro-Import or Anti-American supporter. All you are doing is handing over any leverage you had in the discussion. The Pro-Import person is in the control position here, forcing the Pro-American buyer to defend his decisions, like he has made a mistake or something. Forget that stuff!
If you want to discuss pro's and con's, fine. But NEVER let someone put you on the defensive side of the argument, especially one as irrational and emotionally charged as this one.
No matter how some folks want to intellectualize the car buying process, it's still driven by emotion as anything else. People base their buying decisions on things that don't make sense or stand up to logic. That's human being's for ya.
You cannot rationalize an irrational buying decision. I don't care what the product or service is.
The key for the Pro-American buyer is to not respond at all in any way to the Pro-Import or Anti-American supporter. All you are doing is handing over any leverage you had in the discussion. The Pro-Import person is in the control position here, forcing the Pro-American buyer to defend his decisions, like he has made a mistake or something. Forget that stuff!
If you want to discuss pro's and con's, fine. But NEVER let someone put you on the defensive side of the argument, especially one as irrational and emotionally charged as this one.
Kestas
Staff member
I realize I shouldn't have included the American flag in my statement. But getting teed off about imports and holding American nameplates in high regard is misguided frustration, for the very reason I and others have previously mentioned.
The only time I defend American cars is when someone says something like "I had a Chevy that was junk, so American cars suck." So just because he had a bad experience with a Chevy, he's saying that American cars (including Ford and Chrysler) are junk? It's not fair to lump all the American automakers into the same category, as if they were all the same company.
Would if I said, "I had a Nissan that was junk, so that means HONDAS are junk." Doesn't make much sense does it?
So, in short: If you have/had a bad experience with ONE (or two) of the big three, don't automatically assume that the others are also junk. It's not fair, and downright illogical.
Would if I said, "I had a Nissan that was junk, so that means HONDAS are junk." Doesn't make much sense does it?
So, in short: If you have/had a bad experience with ONE (or two) of the big three, don't automatically assume that the others are also junk. It's not fair, and downright illogical.
I think bretfraz hit the nail on the head.
I also like the chevy ads where they compare the Traverse against an Escape hybrid and some imported cute ute and it beats them all in highway MPG. One ad in that series, maybe that one, he wheels out a Honda lawnmower.
The MPG figure makes a retort against those who only see red dots in consumer reports.
I also like the chevy ads where they compare the Traverse against an Escape hybrid and some imported cute ute and it beats them all in highway MPG. One ad in that series, maybe that one, he wheels out a Honda lawnmower.
The MPG figure makes a retort against those who only see red dots in consumer reports.
Originally Posted By: Popinski
Now, I'm neutral about this subject but I could never figure out how you can defend the US auto industry when it comes to how much money is going back to America.
For example, the main defense is "If you buy an American car, the money is going back to America.".
From what I've heard, Korean and Japanese factories in America are actually helping America by a long shot. The Hyundai Sonata and Santa Fe use majority American metal and American made parts. Even with some money going back to South Korea, majority of the money stays in America. Same with the Toyota Camry: majority of parts are American and majority of the money is staying in the US... same with the Honda Accord which is greatly helping Ohio out. Heck, majority of Korean and Japanese cars are even engineered and designed in America.
Even American cars that are built in different countries help foreign countries more than the USA.
But the real question is, how can an American defend American cars when it comes to supporting the USA?
I hope this is not considered a political question because I have no intentions into making this political.
Frankly, you shouldn't defend the car makers. They should be able to defend themselves. They do that by making a product that people will buy over the competition.
The idea about where the profits go. They go to the investors. If anyone thinks that only Americans invest in "American" car companies, you are out of touch with reality. I'm sure folks from all over the world, maybe even Osama bin Laden have US car company stock.
So the profits argument really doesn't hold water, even if the US carmakers were turning a profit.
You can also buy the ADRs for companies like Toyota and Honda, thus getting a piece of the profits for yourself. I have several mutual funds that hold such ADRs. Not to mention I own some international mutual funds that are invested in companies all over the world, including foreign car makers.
So guess what, the profits from Toyota, BMW, etc fund my retirement plan.
So again, the profits overseas are a bogus point. I get profits right here from those "foreign" car makers.
FWIW and this page has links to other automaker stocks
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TM
So why defend American cars? The domestic 3 have been moving plants outside the US for decades while their competition has been moving plants into the US.
Ditto for importing assemblies. The D3 want folks to "Buy American" but buy foreign when it comes to parts and sometimes complete cars.
Frankly, it can't be defended given the current business practices of the D3. As long as they themselves are buying overseas, how can they expect folks here in the US to only look at American cars.
Frankly, they can't.
Now, I'm neutral about this subject but I could never figure out how you can defend the US auto industry when it comes to how much money is going back to America.
For example, the main defense is "If you buy an American car, the money is going back to America.".
From what I've heard, Korean and Japanese factories in America are actually helping America by a long shot. The Hyundai Sonata and Santa Fe use majority American metal and American made parts. Even with some money going back to South Korea, majority of the money stays in America. Same with the Toyota Camry: majority of parts are American and majority of the money is staying in the US... same with the Honda Accord which is greatly helping Ohio out. Heck, majority of Korean and Japanese cars are even engineered and designed in America.
Even American cars that are built in different countries help foreign countries more than the USA.
But the real question is, how can an American defend American cars when it comes to supporting the USA?
I hope this is not considered a political question because I have no intentions into making this political.
Frankly, you shouldn't defend the car makers. They should be able to defend themselves. They do that by making a product that people will buy over the competition.
The idea about where the profits go. They go to the investors. If anyone thinks that only Americans invest in "American" car companies, you are out of touch with reality. I'm sure folks from all over the world, maybe even Osama bin Laden have US car company stock.
So the profits argument really doesn't hold water, even if the US carmakers were turning a profit.
You can also buy the ADRs for companies like Toyota and Honda, thus getting a piece of the profits for yourself. I have several mutual funds that hold such ADRs. Not to mention I own some international mutual funds that are invested in companies all over the world, including foreign car makers.
So guess what, the profits from Toyota, BMW, etc fund my retirement plan.
So again, the profits overseas are a bogus point. I get profits right here from those "foreign" car makers.
FWIW and this page has links to other automaker stocks
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:TM
So why defend American cars? The domestic 3 have been moving plants outside the US for decades while their competition has been moving plants into the US.
Ditto for importing assemblies. The D3 want folks to "Buy American" but buy foreign when it comes to parts and sometimes complete cars.
Frankly, it can't be defended given the current business practices of the D3. As long as they themselves are buying overseas, how can they expect folks here in the US to only look at American cars.
Frankly, they can't.
Bingo, if it was good enough for the D3 to buy Japanese or Korean, they why expect their customers to do any different?
Originally Posted By: Kestas
For my whole career as a Detroit autoworker I've never subscribed to the "Buy American" mentality. This is because I've seen the auto makers do exactly what their consumers are doing. They buy their parts, tools, raw materials, and labor on the open, international market. Why shouldn't we, the consumer, do the same thing?
When the "Buy American" hype rolled around, I saw it as the "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocricy that it was and is.
Thoes people who sneer at foreign nameplates while waving the American flag are downright simple- and close-minded.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
For my whole career as a Detroit autoworker I've never subscribed to the "Buy American" mentality. This is because I've seen the auto makers do exactly what their consumers are doing. They buy their parts, tools, raw materials, and labor on the open, international market. Why shouldn't we, the consumer, do the same thing?
When the "Buy American" hype rolled around, I saw it as the "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocricy that it was and is.
Thoes people who sneer at foreign nameplates while waving the American flag are downright simple- and close-minded.
And I agree, the best way to defend is to buy. Talk is cheap.
I have remained silent until now... Well said JC, I agree 100% but didn't want to be the one to say it because I'm always told I'm "out to lunch" on the subject.
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
And I agree, the best way to defend is to buy. Talk is cheap.
Buying new or used? I've been buying used vehicles all my life and the only time I step in the showroom floor is when I buy replacement parts.
And I agree, the best way to defend is to buy. Talk is cheap.
Buying new or used? I've been buying used vehicles all my life and the only time I step in the showroom floor is when I buy replacement parts.
When I buy used the seller gets the short end of the stick, but is willing, out of low esteem for what in their eyes is a "clunker". I don't help their esteem any.
I've never smelled the same level of desperation for a foreign brand, or, rather, been able to respond within minutes of the ad's placement. The stubbornness of the foreign brand seller makes a worse deal and, for my money, not worth it. If they've had foreign cars before, they don't know the angst of unwanted Detroit iron shading their lawns for weeks, unwanted by second owners. They don't respond as willingly to offers just for the sake of "getting that thing out of here".
Am I equalizing the world just slightly by buying used domestics? I'm not really paying more than anyone else and therefore not improving resale values as measurable by KBB, Edmunds, etc.
I've never smelled the same level of desperation for a foreign brand, or, rather, been able to respond within minutes of the ad's placement. The stubbornness of the foreign brand seller makes a worse deal and, for my money, not worth it. If they've had foreign cars before, they don't know the angst of unwanted Detroit iron shading their lawns for weeks, unwanted by second owners. They don't respond as willingly to offers just for the sake of "getting that thing out of here".
Am I equalizing the world just slightly by buying used domestics? I'm not really paying more than anyone else and therefore not improving resale values as measurable by KBB, Edmunds, etc.
Originally Posted By: smokey1
many imports use as much as 60% for parts that are made in U.S. for their vehicles .
Stop spreading lies smokey1.
(J/K)
many imports use as much as 60% for parts that are made in U.S. for their vehicles .
Stop spreading lies smokey1.
Funny, Domestics have a reputation for not holding there resale value, so buyers don't expect to pay top dollar for them> Which adds to there reputation.......
If only Detroit had made ONE car that just Sparkled, out performed, out lasted, sipped gas, did not rust etc. We would not feel we need defend the rest.
If only Detroit had made ONE car that just Sparkled, out performed, out lasted, sipped gas, did not rust etc. We would not feel we need defend the rest.
Here in California, imports are very popular (especially Japanese and BMW/MBZ). People really shun domestic cars -- the exception being SUVs & trucks. If you drive a domestic, you're seen as a country hillbilly or someone who couldn't afford an import. You can drive through some parking lots and count 1 domestic per 5 imports, sometimes even 10. The Toyota & Honda dealerships are HUGE, probably 3x as big as Ford/GM's.
I've owned/currently own domestics, Japanese and Euros. I'm not partial to any country. When it comes to cars, people make their decisions based on subjective emotions, then attempt to justify with (made-up) facts.
I've owned/currently own domestics, Japanese and Euros. I'm not partial to any country. When it comes to cars, people make their decisions based on subjective emotions, then attempt to justify with (made-up) facts.
Originally Posted By: expat
Funny, Domestics have a reputation for not holding there resale value, so buyers don't expect to pay top dollar for them> Which adds to there reputation.......
If only Detroit had made ONE car that just Sparkled, out performed, out lasted, sipped gas, did not rust etc. We would not feel we need defend the rest.
I suspect some of this is due to the fact rental fleets are primarily made up of domestic cars, and rental cars depreciate harder. Being a rental car trumps the fact a car is reliable: An example is the Hyundai Sonata, which is regarded as being very reliable, but it's very popular with rental companies and as a result it does not hold its value well despite being a reliable import
Funny, Domestics have a reputation for not holding there resale value, so buyers don't expect to pay top dollar for them> Which adds to there reputation.......
If only Detroit had made ONE car that just Sparkled, out performed, out lasted, sipped gas, did not rust etc. We would not feel we need defend the rest.
I suspect some of this is due to the fact rental fleets are primarily made up of domestic cars, and rental cars depreciate harder. Being a rental car trumps the fact a car is reliable: An example is the Hyundai Sonata, which is regarded as being very reliable, but it's very popular with rental companies and as a result it does not hold its value well despite being a reliable import
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Originally Posted By: javacontour
Frankly, you shouldn't defend the car makers. They should be able to defend themselves. They do that by making a product that people will buy over the competition.
QFT
Frankly, you shouldn't defend the car makers. They should be able to defend themselves. They do that by making a product that people will buy over the competition.
QFT
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
This makes me proud to be a fellow GM owner..
http://peopleofwalmart.com/?paged=6
I've seen worse on Japanese cars and Volkswagen's.
This makes me proud to be a fellow GM owner..
http://peopleofwalmart.com/?paged=6
I've seen worse on Japanese cars and Volkswagen's.
Originally Posted By: Onmo'Eegusee
That [censored] happens with any brand of car, pretty much.
Yes. Come to the DC area and you'll see it mainly with Hondas, with the occasional Toyota thrown in.
That [censored] happens with any brand of car, pretty much.
Yes. Come to the DC area and you'll see it mainly with Hondas, with the occasional Toyota thrown in.
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