BMW 135i oil issue

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Twilight_Blue_G35c
...Would using Redline in between the dealership scheduled oil changes help at all? (draining the BMW oil half way through the interval?)


I think the deposit issue cannot be readily fixed with oil choice. I believe oil choice may help the problem but won't solve it. F.e. Mobil 1 0W40 I think is generally recognized as being good at deposit control. The above 100k photo was a car that used M1 0W40 every 10k miles.

As part of a battery of measures to combat deposits, using a low volatility oil and good cleaning oil makes sense I think. Do properties of ester-containing oils such as redline and biosyn make a difference? That is the question and hard to answer I think. Some things to think about:

In Rl_RS4's work, he thinks that Renewable lubricants Biosyn helps with deposit formation due to low volatility and cleaning ability. I haven't researched it enough to know this is true but he has put a tremendous amount of work into the issue and I would encourage anyone to track down his work on audi RS4 engines. I would love to see some solid before and after comparisons of Biosyn deposits vs other oil deposits.

I find this CRODA slide interesting as valves get tremendously hot (as much as 380C in the 2.0 FSI).

If the above indicator is true, it does make one think that oil choice may influence deposits. VW's patent seems to indicate that they rely on typical driving habits to "burn off" the valve deposits. But wouldn't the high temps actually increase the type of deposits shown in the CRODA slide? That is why I say the overall question is hard to answer.

IMO eliminating the source of the problem by no return to the intake is the only sure-fire method. Barring that, combining as many of the above listed treatment/preventative measures as possible would be wise I think. I have been impressed in particular with cars that have received the induction service. For those preventative measures I think starting early is important.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Might something like Amsoil Powerfoam work well for these problems. Pull the IM, fill the valve area, bolt it back up, wait, run the snot out of it, change the oil... (?)

Even better might be to use it as intended and simply fill the IM too, since the PCV return point is probably different in all of these engines.

I bet it would work better than some of the other induction services due to the contact of the foam with every surface in there, not just where some kind of mist in the air stream happens to pass by in just the right manner.

I totally understand, though, that most of these DI engines are in premium brand cars and everyone will not want to be the first to try something like Powerfoam in their shiny new BMW *35, especially under warranty.

 

[Nederlander75]

I have 2 cans of Sea Foam that Im going to try misting through the intake at the filter neck. But, Im not having drivability issues so pulling the IM would be the only way to see before and after pics. I dont have the mechanical ability for that.

 

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
I have 2 cans of Sea Foam that Im going to try misting through the intake at the filter neck. But, Im not having drivability issues so pulling the IM would be the only way to see before and after pics. I dont have the mechanical ability for that.


I do think the seafoam helps. I would suggest pulling it into the intake via the basketball needle method or misting it in somehow. I would go for as close as possible to the intake manifold and if you can't find a port or hose to put it in there then definitely post MAF sensor as I would guess the Naptha in seafoam could damage the MAF.

BTW, here is an old thread from Terry Dyson re: seafoam for recreational reading:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=294035&page=1

 

[esteve]

Interesting info, would the CPO warranty cover any future issues caused by the deposit buildup?

I'm guessing issues with DI technology are mainly limited to FI, since I haven't really heard about any problems with Lexus DI for example.

 

[Nederlander75]

Awesome, thank you.

 

[JAG]

I have an on-going experiment in which the particles I mentioned have been put into two virgin motor oils. They are in M1 0W-40 and Red Line 5W-30 which were heated to 200F for about 8 hours, ambient temp. for 2 days, then about 400F for 7 hours. Objective is to see if either oil could dissolve the particles. Much to my disappointment, neither oil has done any observable particle dissolving. So it begs the question of why. My hunch is that the particles are so advanced in the oxidation/other reaction process that their solubility in any motor oil is next to nil. I did notice when putting the particles in the oil test cups that they were brittle. It reminded me of metallic additive-derived ash that forms when motor oils is burnt. I will look at the particles again with magnification when I'm done with the test. Brittleness is not a trait I expect of varnish particles.

 

[Nederlander75]

That is very interesting and a little disheartening. Ive wondered the same with regard to the make of the funk being deposited in these applications. I just ordered my first run of RLI 5w40 with the Bio Plus injecter cleaner/fuel conditioner. I will run at least 3 OCIs and get UOAs. Switching labs, but will use the same lab for all three runs. Now if I can get the courage to take apart my IM to clean it up I will be set, though Im not seeing any signs of deposit related engine issues.

 

[JimKo]

JAG,

Have you seen any improvements running the Red Line 5W-40? I changed the factory oil at 1200 miles with GC. At 5500 I changed it with RL 5W-40. I did not see any particles around the filler cap. It was really clean actually. I have RL running now and the car feels slickier for lack of better words. Also, I have not noticed any stumbling so far but I did with GC. Time will tell but I feel Red Line is the right oil for the N54.

 

[JAG]

JimKo, that is good to hear that RL 5W-40 seems to be a good choice. I bought the RL 5W-40 but haven't put it in yet...hope to any day now.

When I changed from M1 5W-40 TDT to the BMW Castrol 5W-30, I noticed that in the first few minutes after startup that if I drove it under light load to ~2800 rpm then let off the gas, there was very noticeable valvetrain noise. I never noticed that with M1 5W-40 TDT. So I am not a fan of BMW Castrol 5W-30.

I'll post any impressions I have of RL 5W-40 once I put it in.

 

[JAG]

Here are my impressions of a few days of driving with Red Line 5W-40. The only difference I am confident enough in to speak about is during full throttle accelerations up to near redline, it feels like there is some power loss and decreased mechanical sounds, relative to BMW Castrol 5W-30. That is not surprising given their HTHS viscosity differences.

A similarity while using both oils that I am disappointed in is that in the first few minutes after cold startup there is still a very noticeable valvetrain noise when I drove it under light load to ~2800 rpm then let off the gas.

I'm thinking I should next try a lower HTHS viscosity oil during the next oil change. Red Line 5W-40 differs from most other Red Line viscosity grades in that it lacks moly additives, so using one of them will change both viscosity and additive package - an undesired multiple variable change. I'll choose the next fill after I run this oil longer.

 

[buster]

JAG, Redline 0w30 or 0w40 maybe worth a shot? Their 0w40 has a HT/HS of 4.0, significantly lower then the 5w40 @ 4.6

 

[saaber1]

Interesting observation on the RL 5w40. Did you notice any difference in turbo spool up? Made a big diff. on the GTI but cannot say any power increase. Definitely wants to spin tires from stop sign much easier after going to rl 5w40.

FYI I just put in a mix of 4 qts rl 5w30 and 1 qt rl 10w40 on the GTI (2.0 FSI). Using the Rohmax calculator yields a 11.45 cst and probably a HTHS of 3.96 fro that mix. UOAs should be interesting to compare to the previous several rl 5w40 runs.

Effect of moly is interesting variable. I chose the 10W40 over 5w40 to keep similar additive package with the 5w30 (i.e. with moly).

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: JAG

A similarity while using both oils that I am disappointed in is that in the first few minutes after cold startup there is still a very noticeable valvetrain noise when I drove it under light load to ~2800 rpm then let off the gas.


I'm personally curious why you've concluded that a valve noise, somehow caused by throttle angle, has something to do with lubrication.

What's changing in the valvetrain relating to throttle angle? Conditions won't change light-on or off throttle for: cams, oil pump, rockers, hydraulic lash adjusters etc... I do realize that valvetronic may play a role here I haven't fully thought through. Further, HTHS isn't usually a "valve" thing and when the oil is cold it's already so much thicker than when at full temp I'm not sure what you're chasing.

Although my BMW's engine design is 10+ years older than yours, as an owner of a Dinan exhaust system I can tell you that there's significant off-throttle popping and rumbling which is greatly accentuated when the engine is running in "warm up" mode where the injectors keep firing off-throttle. Is there any possibility that you're hearing something like this and not valve train noise? The nature of the body shell, sound insulation, exhaust system and the presence of turbos would dramatically affect how this would sound inside the cabin I would imagine.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
What's changing in the valvetrain relating to throttle angle?

Quite a good bit, actually.

A VALVETRONIC engine responds to throttle input by varying valve lift and duration instead of by opening and closing the throttle plate. The VANOS system works in conjunction with that to vary cam phasing. There's a lot going on.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/technology_guide/articles/mm_valvetronic.html

Check out the video. You can see how the action of the rocker arm changes as the VALVETRONIC system operates.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
What's changing in the valvetrain relating to throttle angle?

Quite a good bit, actually.

A VALVETRONIC engine responds to throttle input by varying valve lift and duration instead of by opening and closing the throttle plate. The VANOS system works in conjunction with that to vary cam phasing. There's a lot going on.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/technology_guide/articles/mm_valvetronic.html

Check out the video. You can see how the action of the rocker arm changes as the VALVETRONIC system operates.


If I remember my Valvetronic stuff, off throttle there will be almost no valve action (low lift, low duration). I'm not sure how ever-increasing the HTHS of the oil would improve an area where there's almost no stress going on. (?)

Is this a commonly discussed noise among N54 owners? Has it been tied to lubricants or could it be something out of calibration (ie. slack/play developing in a zero-lift scenario that shouldn't be there)?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
If I remember my Valvetronic stuff, off throttle there will be almost no valve action (low lift, low duration).

Wouldn't that mean the parts are in their loosest-fitting states?

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Craig in Canada
If I remember my Valvetronic stuff, off throttle there will be almost no valve action (low lift, low duration).

Wouldn't that mean the parts are in their loosest-fitting states?


That's what I'm wondering/implying - I'm not sure that HTHS makes any difference here. If anything, high viscosity might help to "fill gaps" or "take up play" but the report is that this only happens when cold.

If it's metal expansion, improperly fitting or improperly operating parts this is a mechanical issue not a lubrication issue. The owner could try every oil made and it may not do anything or, if it does, it may simply be masking a symptom.

It's all guesses on my part, and trying to draw out any more specific info from N54 owners/experts. I'm just an armchair N54 driver here

 

[JAG]

I have to keep my replies short:
buster, I say "maybe but I doubt it" to 0W-X Red Line oils.

saaber1, I have not noticed any difference in turbo spool. This engine has built-in lag caused by the ECU anyway so that has a masking effect on lubrication-caused turbo lag.

Craig, I haven't drawn many conclusions about the noise I spoke of. I just don't like the sound because it sounds bad, I don't know if it is harmless or not, and I don't know exactly what it's coming from. For those reasons I'd prefer it didn't happen. I rarely visit BMW forums so I don't know is this is common to the N54 engine. As you said, HTHS is NOT an applicable viscometric to consider just after a cold engine start. I mentioned HTHS due to full throttle accelerations up to near redline with fully warmed oil.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: JAG

Craig, I haven't drawn many conclusions about the noise I spoke of. I just don't like the sound because it sounds bad, I don't know if it is harmless or not, and I don't know exactly what it's coming from. For those reasons I'd prefer it didn't happen. I rarely visit BMW forums so I don't know is this is common to the N54 engine. As you said, HTHS is NOT an applicable viscometric to consider just after a cold engine start. I mentioned HTHS due to full throttle accelerations up to near redline with fully warmed oil.


Ah, I didn't catch that your mention of HTHS was limited to the one characteristic.

I'd be interested in whether this noise you refer to is an N54 "thing", or just your individual unit.