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#1430644 - 04/10/09 05:07 AM TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace?
Kurt_Hectic Offline


Registered: 01/14/09
Posts: 11
Loc: France
TOYOTA ATF WS = JWS 3324
TOYOTA ATF T-IV = JWS 3309
May I use TOYOTA ATF WS to replace TOYOTA T-IV ?
My car : SX4 1.6 Auto transmission 4speed.

ps:sorry My english very poor :)


Edited by Kurt_Hectic (04/10/09 05:15 AM)

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#1430686 - 04/10/09 06:46 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Kurt_Hectic]
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
No, Toyota has never backspec'd WS to their T-IV transmissions.

But, I have and it works great.
_________________________
Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it.
Your automaker lied!
Is this a spelling/grammar forum or BITOG?

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#1430697 - 04/10/09 07:09 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: unDummy]
hate2work Offline


Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 4617
Loc: Western Washington

I wouldn't do it. Both Redline and Amsoil make very good synthetic replacement fluid for the Type T-IV. Or just use the Toyota T-IV fluid.
_________________________

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#1430743 - 04/10/09 08:13 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: hate2work]
bepperb Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 4754
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
WS is much thinner than T-IV, so I would not.
_________________________
2004 Highlander 2.4
2011 Toyota Sienna 3.5
Recently Gone:
2006 Accord 2.4l K24A8
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#1430753 - 04/10/09 08:20 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Kurt_Hectic]
Pablo Offline


Registered: 10/28/02
Posts: 46680
Loc: Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
 Originally Posted By: Kurt_Hectic
TOYOTA ATF WS = JWS 3324
TOYOTA ATF T-IV = JWS 3309
May I use TOYOTA ATF WS to replace TOYOTA T-IV ?
My car : SX4 1.6 Auto transmission 4speed.



I would not.

Amsoil ATF is recommended for T-IV, but not WS. This tells us hey are not that close or at least Amsoil has not evaluated the application.

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#1430833 - 04/10/09 10:23 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Pablo]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13513
Loc: Upstate NY
Use the Amsoil ATF for your T-IV application. If your vehicle calls for Toyota WS, then you need to get that at the dealer.
_________________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
1999 Dodge Ram 2500 w/Cummins - Rotella T6 & M1
Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

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#1430845 - 04/10/09 10:46 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Donald]
hate2work Offline


Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 4617
Loc: Western Washington
 Originally Posted By: Donald
Use the Amsoil ATF for your T-IV application. If your vehicle calls for Toyota WS, then you need to get that at the dealer.


Redline is now saying they have a compatible fluid for WS, I think it's called D-6. AZfireguy posted on this board about using it successfully in place of WS.
_________________________

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#1430926 - 04/10/09 11:48 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: hate2work]
INDYMAC Offline


Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2330
Loc: Magnolia, TX
I'm not sure this is on topic, but I thought it was interesting.

When I took my 2009 FWD RAV4 into the dealer for an unrelated issue, I mentioned that the car had a lot of gear whine at certain speeds. The service manager said that Toyota was well aware of the problem, and they were working on fixing it. He did not say what the fix might be, but I suspect that the WS fluid is not up to the task of proper lubrication for the tranny and final drive gears as the fluid heats up. Maybe a higher viscosity gear oil in the works from Toyota?
_________________________
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#1430989 - 04/10/09 01:17 PM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: INDYMAC]
Smokescreen Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 2375
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Interesting....I am re-assured in my thinking to drain-refill every 30,000kms (approx 20,000 miles) on my 09 Corolla (3L not much anyways). I will have to look into getting Petro Canada WS version. They supply the Dex6 to GM and other companies, and have great specs....
http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/612.aspx
_________________________
09 Corolla 1.8L-212Kkms(133Kmi)-PP,Denso
05 LeSabre 3.8L-138Kkms(86Kmi)-F1,Baldwin
03 Sierra 2500 6.0L-186Kkms(116Kmi)-PYB,Baldwin

All with mpg > EPA

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#1585573 - 09/01/09 10:47 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Smokescreen]
Devo Offline


Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hi folks, I had to join this discussion because I have some experience in the lubricants world (having working in R&D and sales for a major lubricants manufacturer). I just want to clear up a few concerns raised here the best I can.

Toyota's WS vs T-IV
- Toyota (see link to Service Bulletin < http://www.etimago.com/yaris/TSB/TS-TC01...20Fluid%20).pdf >) does clearly indicate that THEIR own ATF-WS is NOT compatible with T-IV or Dexron ATF and they recommend only the WS be used in vehicles that call for it. It makes perfect sense that they are not compatible because the additive chemistry is different. This is the same reason you should never add "magic" additives to ATF's to convert one to meet another spec - leave the chemistry work to the reputable ATF manufacturers since they spend enormous amounts of money in engineering and testing of their products.
- It is also true that the viscosity is very different, WS is a fair bit lighter viscosity. The Japanese are big into fuel efficiency and so the WS is designed with a lower viscosity which tends to result in a gain more fuel economy and it is also designing with a different additive cocktail to be a longer life fluid (similar benefits to GM's Dexron VI).
- Why they have not backspec'd the WS for T-IV applications is interesting but I think this is simply to avoid potential confusion especially seeing as the 2 fluids are not compatible - it is easy to see the possibility of dealer filling/top up mistakes.

So to use a "multi-vehicle" ATF (from a reputable company - ideally one that is known to make ATF's) with a slightly higher viscosity, the only real trade off will be fuel efficiency. Fuel Efficiency gains from lower viscosity ENGINE oils is proven with standardized tests but it which is much more difficult to quantify such savings between different viscosities of ATF's as there are so many other variables. If you make a switch to a different product and you experience undesirable "shifting" issues, then you might consider changing it back to the OEM product but I can assure you this is highly uunlikely if you use a reputable brand product. More of a concern is ensuring the old fluid is removed before adding a different one.

Early, Petro-Canada's DuraDrive MV (Multi-Vehicle) product was mentioned and there were concerns of it working in both T-IV and WS applications. Believe me, a major ATF player like Petro-Canada would not put their name on a product unless it was fully tested. Petro-Canada is a major world supplier of many different ATF's - most notably Dexron VI (they co-developed the product with GM and provide factory fill throughout the world)< http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000384801.cfm?x=b11,0,w >.

Another thing to keep in mind, those oil company's that supply the big automotive OEM's have to be very careful when marketing a "multi-vehicle" product because they are also licensed to make specific OEM labelled products. It is possible that their "multi-vehicle" product meets other spec's but they cannot show it because they risk losing their licensing of "specific" products. The ATF world is becoming very complicated as new designs of transmissions are developed. It is even more complicated because classic universal oils such as the old Dexron III/Mercon have been replaced with OEM specific products. The OEM's make a lot of their money on parts and lubricants are treated as a part so it is in their interest to market and protect their own labeled products.


Edited by Devo (09/01/09 10:49 AM)

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#1586434 - 09/02/09 04:13 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Devo]
crinkles Offline


Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 5493
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Devo
Hi folks, I had to join this discussion because I have some experience in the lubricants world (having working in R&D and sales for a major lubricants manufacturer). I just want to clear up a few concerns raised here the best I can.

Toyota's WS vs T-IV
- Toyota (see link to Service Bulletin < http://www.etimago.com/yaris/TSB/TS-TC01...20Fluid%20).pdf >) does clearly indicate that THEIR own ATF-WS is NOT compatible with T-IV or Dexron ATF and they recommend only the WS be used in vehicles that call for it. It makes perfect sense that they are not compatible because the additive chemistry is different. This is the same reason you should never add "magic" additives to ATF's to convert one to meet another spec - leave the chemistry work to the reputable ATF manufacturers since they spend enormous amounts of money in engineering and testing of their products.
- It is also true that the viscosity is very different, WS is a fair bit lighter viscosity. The Japanese are big into fuel efficiency and so the WS is designed with a lower viscosity which tends to result in a gain more fuel economy and it is also designing with a different additive cocktail to be a longer life fluid (similar benefits to GM's Dexron VI).
- Why they have not backspec'd the WS for T-IV applications is interesting but I think this is simply to avoid potential confusion especially seeing as the 2 fluids are not compatible - it is easy to see the possibility of dealer filling/top up mistakes.

So to use a "multi-vehicle" ATF (from a reputable company - ideally one that is known to make ATF's) with a slightly higher viscosity, the only real trade off will be fuel efficiency. Fuel Efficiency gains from lower viscosity ENGINE oils is proven with standardized tests but it which is much more difficult to quantify such savings between different viscosities of ATF's as there are so many other variables. If you make a switch to a different product and you experience undesirable "shifting" issues, then you might consider changing it back to the OEM product but I can assure you this is highly uunlikely if you use a reputable brand product. More of a concern is ensuring the old fluid is removed before adding a different one.

Early, Petro-Canada's DuraDrive MV (Multi-Vehicle) product was mentioned and there were concerns of it working in both T-IV and WS applications. Believe me, a major ATF player like Petro-Canada would not put their name on a product unless it was fully tested. Petro-Canada is a major world supplier of many different ATF's - most notably Dexron VI (they co-developed the product with GM and provide factory fill throughout the world)< http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000384801.cfm?x=b11,0,w >.

Another thing to keep in mind, those oil company's that supply the big automotive OEM's have to be very careful when marketing a "multi-vehicle" product because they are also licensed to make specific OEM labelled products. It is possible that their "multi-vehicle" product meets other spec's but they cannot show it because they risk losing their licensing of "specific" products. The ATF world is becoming very complicated as new designs of transmissions are developed. It is even more complicated because classic universal oils such as the old Dexron III/Mercon have been replaced with OEM specific products. The OEM's make a lot of their money on parts and lubricants are treated as a part so it is in their interest to market and protect their own labeled products.


great post.

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#1586540 - 09/02/09 08:36 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Devo]
Kestas Online   content



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10837
Loc: The Motor City
Agreed. It's refreshing to get new posters in here who realize they have unique knowledge to add to old posts.

Originally Posted By: Devo
... The ATF world is becoming very complicated as new designs of transmissions are developed. It is even more complicated because classic universal oils such as the old Dexron III/Mercon have been replaced with OEM specific products. The OEM's make a lot of their money on parts and lubricants are treated as a part so it is in their interest to market and protect their own labeled products.

This is what troubles me as a consumer. OEM-specific ATF fluids are nearly always more expensive than the old DexIII/Mercon fluids we're so familiar with. The manufacturers would do the driving public a huge favor by designing the transmission to the fluid. I imagine any benefits to their OEM-spcific fluid are offset by the extra cost. But alas, the auto manufacturers discovered yet another way to profit from the aftermarket... along with replacing expensive headlamps, newfangled keys that get lost, tire pressure systems, and other things that didn't suck money from our wallets in the past.

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#1586583 - 09/02/09 09:19 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Kestas]
MonumentOiler Offline


Registered: 02/04/07
Posts: 442
Loc: Monument, CO, USA
I disagree. These new fluids are much better than the old fluid standards at a relatively small cost. $4-8/qt for the increased performance is cheap.

While few at BITOG buying into the 100k fluid idea, not too long ago 100k was fairly average for transmission life not fluid life.

Dex-VI can be had for $4 a quart with good performance guaranteed.

Dexron was always a GM standard that happened to get picked up by much of the industry. The same may yet happen with Dex-VI.

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#1586643 - 09/02/09 10:10 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: MonumentOiler]
Kestas Online   content



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 10837
Loc: The Motor City
I would agree with you at $4 per quart. Some fluids are up to $16 per quart where the application requires 8 to 12 qts. I can only hope that manufacturers move to Dex-VI on a wholesale basis.

My 30K fluid exchanges with Dex-III cost $28 max in fluid.
Some applications (e.g., Mercedes and Volvo) cost $128 min in fluid every 60K.

Thanks to this site, I pay no more than is necessary for the proper fluid.

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#1586739 - 09/02/09 11:41 AM Re: TOYOTA T-IV ? TOYOTA ATF WS ? May i to replace? [Re: Kurt_Hectic]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
Originally Posted By: Kurt_Hectic
May I use TOYOTA ATF WS to replace TOYOTA T-IV ?
No, I asked my dealer and they said NO!!!!
_________________________
Oils well that ends well...

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