0w-40 viscosity engine oils

[moribundman]

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Viscosity is simply one aspect of an oil.

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It's been repeatedly show that engine wear increases at HTHS

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What about the UOA section? I'd like to know if JohnBrowning, Dr.T and others who claim thicker is so much better, ever take a look at the UOA's on here. If you believe oil analysis is giving you a snap shot of engine wear, then how can you still believe this?

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UOA may well give a snapshot of engine wear, but I seriously doubt the numbers mean much unless they deviate considerably from a baseline which must be established in order to draw any conclusions.

You can show me a killer UOA of 0W-20 in your Honda, but can you seriously claim you KNOW you wouldn't get even better numbers with a 0/5/10W-30/40? Only one way to find out!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
perhaps another slant on this may be worth considering

The API's standards are primarily "driven" by the Oil producers. There are exceptions (especially with HDEOs) and now some meaningful consultations with equipment manufacturers occurs from heavy equipment manufacturers at least

ACEA is "driven" by the vehicle manufacturers. This has led to general standards of some significance that can be expanded on by the individual equipment manufacturers

IMHO the equipment manufacturer's standards are the most meaningful. Many of these Approval Lists have been in use for nearly 60 years

JR - you can easily live with M1 0w-40 in your climate. My information is that this oil works very well in light diesel engines of all types up to the required ACEA, MB, API and etc. quality levels
I would be using it in my new light MB OM662 diesel too but it's on Del 1 to limit my inventory

Mori - like you, I am very suspicious of oils with a low HTHS vis. unless they are mandated by the engine's manufacturer. I would always err on the side of an HTHS vis 3.5+ cSt product where possible

Doug

 

[moribundman]

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Well krholm, if you have learned anything you wouldn't be picking an just bc it has a ACEA A3 spec.

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On that note, buster, how does a oil maker get ACEA certification? Do they maybe just pay a fee and have to supply only tests they themselves did without those test results ever being verified by ACEA? Sort of "self-certification"? How's API any different? It isn't, right? I'd rather look out for the carmaker's specifically approved oil list. Why do you think major carmakers have their own oil spec requirements?

Here is my source, a PDF file. You'll have to use google or babelfish or something to translate it into English. Clicking the link will start the PDF download: http://www.transalp.de/technik/pd-t...stoffe.pdf

 

[ebaker]

I still worry about the apparently reduced additives shown on the new SM M1 0w40. They MAY have compensated with improved base oils, but who knows. Is the Australian M1 0w40 the same SM oil sold in the US?

 

[theguru]

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Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
...Cutting open FF filters (Donaldson ELF Synteq) has always shown a complete absence of anything! That is why I changed to SS 25micron FF screens instead.

Doug

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So, OT, but do you find anything in these filters?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
guru - how ya goin? - Storms and thunder here today, the rainy season is early this year!

Hiway trucks have never shown up anything in the SS screens. We have picked up a few valve actuator pads at oil change time - they come out with the oil - they don't get past the OP screen. We just replace them when convenient

We recently changed the oil on a vehicle with one year (32kkms) of City use (Brisbane) and the SS screens were completely clean
The centrifuge had 125g of compacted contaminants inside which is about normal

I had a air line attachment made up to clean the screens reverse of oil flow

ebaker - I believe M1 0w-40 is imported from the USA but I cannot confirm this. Delvac 1 is!

Regards
Doug

 

[theguru]

Hi Doug,

My question is if there is nothing on the SS screens is there really any benefit? I looked into these filters some time ago, but the price of fitting on a low kms per year road vehicle just wasn't economic.

Nice weather here today so far (22C or so), but I believe the storms you have been having are soon to arrive.

 

[toyota62]

Hi Doug.
I went back to mobil1 0w-40.I have tried few different oil's in my Camry.(Motul 300v 5w-30,castrol fromula R 0w-40.Motul X-cess 5w-40,Mobil1 5w-50,Castrol magnatec 10w-30....)
Mobil1 0w-40 is the best out of all.
I mean acceleration,fuel economy,cold start up noise,
Thanks Doug you are the man.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
guru - the benefit is cost effectiveness! They pay for themselves after aboout four oil changes or slightly longer at my OCIs. They are cross applicable to all DD engines anlong with the MANN-HUMMEL centrifuge separators. No disposal problems either.
The Donaldson Synteq filters are about $A130 per pair (two per engine)
These sorts of filtration devices are only truely cost effective at high vehicle utilisation levels. Payback on the centrifuge was about 6-700kkms with Delvac 1 on my Detroits

toyota62 - Hi, good to hear from you - and I'm pleased with your outcomes. Keep in touch!

Doug

 

[buster]

mori, that study was old and flawed. They used one engine. That would be like me saying that the Shell researchers found a thicker oil film in the upper ring area using a 5w-20 then a 15w-40 so thinner is better. It's just not that simple.

 

[AEHaas]

I think we all underestimate the wear protection of modern oils. The benchmark study showing that oils begin to lose full lubrication potential at a HTHS below 2.9 is revealing. These 15 year old minimally formulated base oils provide wear protection in wide open throttle, full load conditions when only having a HTHS of 2.9.

Now formulate to current standards and a 20 wt. oil (with a HTHS of 2.6) can out perform a 40 wt. oil.
From an earlier UOA post:

Oil analysis: compare 2003 Ferrari 575 Maranello and 2000 550 Maranello

My neighbor and I have have Maranellos. He owns the 550 but has the new SuperAmerica on order. He always runs what the book says. His last oil change was with 9,100 miles on the car. It was 9 or 10 months ago. Last week I sampled the oil with 1,800 miles on this oil.

These cars are nearly exactly the same but for a slightly bored out engine in the newer 575 model. His has 475 BHP and mine has 515. His drive to work is 10 - 15 minutes and mine is 15 - 20 minutes and we drive about the same way, spirited. My car has 6,300 miles on it. I run the 20 wt oil while he has always run the Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40, the factory recommended oil.

One has said that since I get good numbers with the 20 wt oil that I should get better numbers on the 40 wt oil. You be the judge:

__________New _______Ferrari 550_______575
______0W-20 Mobil 1 ___With 1,800 Mi __With 4,100 Mi on the oil
................................................................................................................
Iron__________ Chromium _____ Nickel ________ Aluminum ______3___________8__________9
lead __________ Copper ________ Tin ___________ Silver ________ Titanium ______ Silicon ________4___________6__________8
Boron ________247_________40_________178
Sodium _______15__________8__________15
Potassium ____ Molybdenum __ 164_________18_________86
Phosphorus __1375________ 1203________1243
Zinc ________ 1328________1191________1169
Calcium _____ 3456________1669________2742
Barium ______ Magnesium ____53_________935_________111
Antimony _____ Vanadium _____ Fuel %Vol _____0__________3.0__________1.0
Abs Oxid ______?__________na__________28
Abs Nitr _______?__________11__________4
Wtr %vol ______0_________ Vis CS 100C ___9.0________11.0 _________8.3
SAE Grade ____20_________30 __________20
Gly test ______NEG_______NEG _________NEG
TBN _________9.87_______not done_____not done

aehaas

 

[moribundman]

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mori, that study was old and flawed.

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No, it wasn't.

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They used one engine. That would be like me saying that the Shell researchers found a thicker oil film in the upper ring area using a 5w-20 then a 15w-40 so thinner is better.

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False logic. An engine contains highly loaded components other than rings. Not sure why you talk about rings, but neglect for example cam lobes and crank bearings?

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It's just not that simple.

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Then stop simplifying -- which you surely appear to be doing IN ALL your above arguments!

[ October 24, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well the fact that the paper is seven years old should not be that big of an issue. I only see it as an issue if their are other SAE papers or something of like credability that claim a different end result from this product. OHM's law is hundreds of years old and still valid today. So time alone should not be used to judge how valid research or results might still be!

I too take a lot of heat for recomending HDEO in petrol applications! I have even been labled a "thick oil" person inspite of the fact that I have tried M1R 0W30.

In the end I think that UOA and trending is the only way to pick an oil for any specific application. THe manufactures recomendations are just that recomendations. I think it would be folish to simply take their word that their recomendation is the only choice. We have seen too many times were deviateing from the recomendations has greatly improved wear rates. Now the fact that one can improve on the OEM recomendations in one specific application does not make the OEM recomendation any less valid at all. Surely no one is saying that following the OEM recomendation is going to casue catastraphofic(sp) failure or anything like that. I think Ted is concered with the analretentive nature of this board to chase down the last PPM or wear that can be influenced by oil selection. The average owner of any vechile is not going to be visting BITOG on a regular basis!This site is for oil nuts!!!


It is too easy to run M1 0W40 for a 2-3 oil changes then run Delvac-1 for 2-3 oil changes and then look at the results!

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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I think we all underestimate the wear protection of modern oils. The benchmark study showing that oils begin to lose full lubrication potential at a HTHS below 2.9 is revealing. These 15 year old minimally formulated base oils provide wear protection in wide open throttle, full load conditions when only having a HTHS of 2.9.

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I think you overestimate the wear protection of modern oils. The benchmark study showing that oils begin to lose full lubrication potential at a HTHS below 2.9 is revealing. These 15 year old minimally formulated base oils do not necessarly provide wear protection in wide open throttle, full load conditions when only having a HTHS of 2.9.

AEHaaas, you drive a Ferrari 15 minutes to work. If you were to drive that car in the manner for which it was designed, which isn't as short-distance commuter car -- even though it's being driven in a "spirited" manner during warm-up, then the UOA might look differently.

Also, two identical engines, with all their moving parts and invariable minute differences due to manufacturing tolerances will likely never produce identical "wear numbers" (if you regard UOA numbers as wear numbers) even under identical operating conditions, including the same oil, so I don't believe that comparing the UOA numbers of those Ferraris means much.

 

[buster]

So every engine design should use an oil that meets the specifications of ACEA A3? LOL.

Whaterver.

I think we have a bunch of thick heads on this site. Dodge tested various oils for the Hemi. They chose 5w-20. Worked every bit as well. How do you exlain Motorcraft's testing of their 5w-20 outperforming their 5w-30? IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE! You either believe the UOA's and conclude 20wts are excellent or you don't believe they are accurate in wear determination. Can't have it both ways. JohnBrowning and Dr.T ARE NO WHERE TO BE FOUND when the 20wt UOAs roll in and are EXCLLENT. BUT when a 5w-50 shows a good report they come crawling out of the wood work. PLEEEEAAASSEEE.


Temperature
Engine design
Oil quality
Driving Style conditions

All are important in engine oil selection. Focusing on ONE spec is foolish.

 

[JasonVW]

Wow. Hot Topic!

 

[moribundman]

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So every engine design should use an oil that meets the specifications of ACEA A3? LOL. [LOL!] Whaterver. [Roll Eyes]

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I never said that! Is it that you simply won't read or that you can't read?

Also, I'm not hung up on ACEA specs. I go by the carmaker's requirements.

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I think we have a bunch of thick heads on this site.

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It takes one to know one.

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Dodge tested various oils for the Hemi. They chose 5w-20. Worked every bit as well. How do you exlain Motorcraft's testing of their 5w-20 outperforming their 5w-30? IT ISNT THAT SIMPLE!

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Hmm, what's your point? Who says a nice 0W-30 won't perform even better?

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You either believe the UOA's and conclude 20wts are excellent or you don't believe they are accurate in wear determination. Can't have it both ways.

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I never said I believed UOA numbers were a suitable means for establishing anything but abnormal wear or oil contamination or depletion. Don't put words in my mouth.

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JohnBrowning and Dr.T ARE NO WHERE TO BE FOUND when the 20wt UOAs roll in and are EXCLLENT. BUT when a 5w-50 shows a good report they come crawling out of the wood work. PLEEEEAAASSEEE.

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So you do believe UOA numbers are accurately showing wear? As you know, you can't have it both ways.

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Temperature
Engine design
Oil quality
Driving Style conditions

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Exactly. I couldn't agree more. And yet you will soon say again claim 99% (or whatever arbitrary random figure you'll pull from who-knows-where) of cars can use low HTHS oil without any negative effects.

 

[Dad2leia]

moribundman, I use a 0w30 in my vehicle: Honda CR-V, and I must say that so far, I'm quite satisfied that I'm not doing any unnecessary wear and tear on my engine. API certified SG (yep, NOT SL or SM), enjoying the additive package and NOT playing the ACEA rating game or wear metals game.

End of line.

 

[1sttruck]

"One has said that since I get good numbers with the 20 wt oil that I should get better numbers on the 40 wt oil."

Did the Shell 5W40 shear down to a 20W ? If so he needs to use a better oil.

 

[wavinwayne]

Right now, I have this mental picture of Buster & Moribundman.

[ October 24, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: wavinwayne ]