I've been wondering where all the good info on MC oil was on the net and after two days of reading on this site I'm sure I've found the place. I currently ride an HD 02 RKC. I've used syn3, Mobil 1 15w40 and currently Amsoil 20w50. I've been seriously considering changing to Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 but have had a heck of time finding it locally and as with the Amsoil, the cost is outrageous. It was recommended by 2 very experienced local HD mechanics to just use Mystik JT8. Thus the quest for information. My OCI is 3000 to 3500 normally. With the Amsoil I ran it to 5 at times. I'd like some feedback from HD TC riders using the diesel blend oils such as, Delvac 1300, Mystik JT8, Delo 400, and the Rotella products such as the T-Multigrade or 5w40syn. These all seem to be good products for general bike use when changed at reasonable intervals, but what's the opinions out there for use in the twin cams with their high temps? Thanks for any feedback.
New Member seeking advice
- Thread starter Cam53
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Autozone stocks M-1Vtwin in their warehouses. Ask your local AZ manager to get it for you. It is about $9.95/qt. I have a TC88 and will only run 20w50 and not a HDEO unless I am in a pinch. But lots of guys run 15w40 Rotella from Walmart. The 5w40 will shear faster in a HD motor but the 15w40 holds up. I know a few guys who run Delo 40w too.
Me? I am a Redline 20w50 fan.
Me? I am a Redline 20w50 fan.
For heaven's sake you Harley guys:
I have a Kawasaki Concours 14 that produces 140HP and 100 ft/lbs of torque and I used nothing but Rotella Syn 5w-40 and have already put 25,000 miles on it in 1.5 years -- no problems whatsoever.
Now if any of you Harley riders think that your large-oil-capacity, dry-sump, no shared trans, low revving, total roller-bearing, 68HP TC88 engine can put more stress on oil than my bike, I'll personally eat your broken pistons .
I run the RTS for 4 to 5000 miles with a PureOne filter and when I did the 15,000mi. valve adjustment, the cams showed almost no wear.
You guys need to ride more and worry less, that TC engine is bullet-proof in normal riding and $10 per quart M/C oil isn't going to make it last 1 mile longer than any good quality HDEO oil changed regularly.
Use Rotella 15w-40 HDEO oil, change it every 3-4000 miles and quit obsessing already. Use the savings to buy some cool accessories or more gas.
I have a Kawasaki Concours 14 that produces 140HP and 100 ft/lbs of torque and I used nothing but Rotella Syn 5w-40 and have already put 25,000 miles on it in 1.5 years -- no problems whatsoever.
Now if any of you Harley riders think that your large-oil-capacity, dry-sump, no shared trans, low revving, total roller-bearing, 68HP TC88 engine can put more stress on oil than my bike, I'll personally eat your broken pistons .
I run the RTS for 4 to 5000 miles with a PureOne filter and when I did the 15,000mi. valve adjustment, the cams showed almost no wear.
You guys need to ride more and worry less, that TC engine is bullet-proof in normal riding and $10 per quart M/C oil isn't going to make it last 1 mile longer than any good quality HDEO oil changed regularly.
Use Rotella 15w-40 HDEO oil, change it every 3-4000 miles and quit obsessing already. Use the savings to buy some cool accessories or more gas.
The TC 96 motor has a Cam Parent Bearing...it needs a thicker oil to float in. Air cooled motors run hotter and HD has them leaned out to meet EPA and, the oil pump doesn't put out the volume that a Concours does....the HD guys like to smell the roses..I'd use the thick oil.
dnewton3
Staff member
The reality is that I don't know of any Harley engine that failed due to lubricant brand/grade selection issues, if a reasonable choice was made. Engineering design and inconsistent manufacturing quality are different stories, however ...
Show me the evidence where a Harley engine failed becaues of the use of HDEO, but some super-premium mega-$$$ PAO would have saved the day; maybe then I'll see the factual basis.
We've been over this time and time again. The heat in the Harley TC engine is no hotter than the heat in a turbo-charger on a light-duty diesel truck pulling a 10k pound travel trailer up the Rockies. Sustained EGTs can get up to 1250 degF, and short bursts can go as high as 1500 deg F. And the only thing cooling the turbo is the oil. Further, today's CJ-4 fluids are designed for serious EGR use; talk about a highly designed package. Does your Harley recycle it's spent exhaust back into the engine to dump yet more heat and soot into the cylinder?????? Not for one second to I believe that a Harley engine is any harder on oil than a highly loaded diesel engine. Think your Harley gets any hotter sitting at stop light than does that diesel truck pulliing the camper, when it pulls to the top of a long off ramp in the mountains, and then sits there waiting it's turn to enter the right of way? I'm not saying that Harleys are not hard on oil; they can be. But today's HDEOs are robust for their operating environment as well.
I have no objection to people using the brand/grade they feel is most appropriate for their ride.
But let the opinions stop at the door of factual basis. Show us the UOAs indicating dino HDEO caused major wear, but PAOs would have prevented it. Show me the tear down photos where HDEO trashed any engine, but PAOs could have stopped the plight. Engine failures are typically due to some engineering flaw, or manufacturing defect. As long as you use a reasonable selection for brand/grade of oil, the lubricant will not be the cause of damage or excessive wear. Could you use a mundane PCMO 5w-20 in a Harley? Maybe, but I would not advise it! But a quality 15w-40 dino HDEO? Sure, for a long time.
Geeze - most guys dump the oil out of their Harley LONG before it's used up anyway, regardless of brand or grade. Their lives are an obsession, with committment to babying their baby. I'm OK with that, and apparently so are they.
This same argument got twisted around when we discussed the Harley "5um" filter and it's "need" for use on the TC engine. But when Wix bought some of the Harley "5um" super-duper filters and tested them for filter efficiency, they found that the Harley "5um" premium filter performed no better than the Wix 51348 (a widely used, common filter with no "special" attributes).
If some people want to use high-end products on their Harley, that's perfectly well and good. Just don't try to convince the rest of us that it's "needed". It's a "want" for you, but not a "necessity" for the engine.
Show me the evidence where a Harley engine failed becaues of the use of HDEO, but some super-premium mega-$$$ PAO would have saved the day; maybe then I'll see the factual basis.
We've been over this time and time again. The heat in the Harley TC engine is no hotter than the heat in a turbo-charger on a light-duty diesel truck pulling a 10k pound travel trailer up the Rockies. Sustained EGTs can get up to 1250 degF, and short bursts can go as high as 1500 deg F. And the only thing cooling the turbo is the oil. Further, today's CJ-4 fluids are designed for serious EGR use; talk about a highly designed package. Does your Harley recycle it's spent exhaust back into the engine to dump yet more heat and soot into the cylinder?????? Not for one second to I believe that a Harley engine is any harder on oil than a highly loaded diesel engine. Think your Harley gets any hotter sitting at stop light than does that diesel truck pulliing the camper, when it pulls to the top of a long off ramp in the mountains, and then sits there waiting it's turn to enter the right of way? I'm not saying that Harleys are not hard on oil; they can be. But today's HDEOs are robust for their operating environment as well.
I have no objection to people using the brand/grade they feel is most appropriate for their ride.
But let the opinions stop at the door of factual basis. Show us the UOAs indicating dino HDEO caused major wear, but PAOs would have prevented it. Show me the tear down photos where HDEO trashed any engine, but PAOs could have stopped the plight. Engine failures are typically due to some engineering flaw, or manufacturing defect. As long as you use a reasonable selection for brand/grade of oil, the lubricant will not be the cause of damage or excessive wear. Could you use a mundane PCMO 5w-20 in a Harley? Maybe, but I would not advise it! But a quality 15w-40 dino HDEO? Sure, for a long time.
Geeze - most guys dump the oil out of their Harley LONG before it's used up anyway, regardless of brand or grade. Their lives are an obsession, with committment to babying their baby. I'm OK with that, and apparently so are they.
This same argument got twisted around when we discussed the Harley "5um" filter and it's "need" for use on the TC engine. But when Wix bought some of the Harley "5um" super-duper filters and tested them for filter efficiency, they found that the Harley "5um" premium filter performed no better than the Wix 51348 (a widely used, common filter with no "special" attributes).
If some people want to use high-end products on their Harley, that's perfectly well and good. Just don't try to convince the rest of us that it's "needed". It's a "want" for you, but not a "necessity" for the engine.
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PT1,Skunky, thanks for the feedback to my question. Civil and to the point.
ZGRider-02zx9r-dnewton3, maybe you guys should try reading the entire question instead of just seeing that I ride a Harley. The whole point of the post was to try to get opinions on the HDEO oil’s listed, not to start a rant on syn verses dino or HD verses [censored], etc. Not all HD riders started out yesterday and are riding their 1st bike 1500 miles a year. At 57, and riding since I was 16, my guess is I had more miles on [censored] bikes before I was 20 than you guys do now. Don’t let you limited view of the world influence your ability to respond to a fellow riders question.
ZGRider-02zx9r-dnewton3, maybe you guys should try reading the entire question instead of just seeing that I ride a Harley. The whole point of the post was to try to get opinions on the HDEO oil’s listed, not to start a rant on syn verses dino or HD verses [censored], etc. Not all HD riders started out yesterday and are riding their 1st bike 1500 miles a year. At 57, and riding since I was 16, my guess is I had more miles on [censored] bikes before I was 20 than you guys do now. Don’t let you limited view of the world influence your ability to respond to a fellow riders question.
dnewton3
Staff member
I'll offer the apology for seeming that I was on a rant; not my intent. However, ...
Are you not the one that specifically stated you had a Harley, and in fact was your question not specific to a TC Harley? What did you expect me to point my answer towards? You are also the one that mentioned PAO products (Mobil 1 and Amsoil) and HDEO produts (JT-8, Delvac, Rotella, etc), are you not? Seems to me you were questioning the applicability of dino HDEOs, compared to the performance you might expect from the high-dollar PAOs. Did I mis-enterpret your statements and question?
Then you asked this, referring to dino HDEOs: "... but what's the opinions out there for use in the twin cams with their high temps?" and I gave a specific example of how an HDEO is designed for high temps in a diesel, and how those temps are comparable to a TC engine.
Then you stated this: "Thanks for any feedback." Gosh, I presumed this meant all manners of contribution were acceptable; perhaps I misunderstood.
And then this from you: "The whole point of the post was to try to get opinions on the HDEO oil’s listed". Ummmm - isn't that what you got? I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. Delvac - great stuff. Rotella - excellent. Mystik JT8 - very worthy. I consider them all fine quality HDEO products.
You also said this: "I've used syn3, Mobil 1 15w40 and currently Amsoil 20w50" and this: "My OCI is 3000 to 3500 normally."
So I stated this: "Geeze - most guys dump the oil out of their Harley LONG before it's used up anyway, regardless of brand or grade." (I do belive you qualify as an example.)
Exactly where is it that you thought I got off topic?
I'll again offer the peace pipe for my tone. But, golly, my answers were spot on, and I don't know how you saw it otherwise.
P.S. - the amount of time one spends in the seat has nothing to do with the relationship of the engine to it's lubricant. My wife accumulates more driving miles than do I at times, due to the nature of her job. Does that make her more "lubricant savy"? Hardly!
Welcome to the site, BTW.
Are you not the one that specifically stated you had a Harley, and in fact was your question not specific to a TC Harley? What did you expect me to point my answer towards? You are also the one that mentioned PAO products (Mobil 1 and Amsoil) and HDEO produts (JT-8, Delvac, Rotella, etc), are you not? Seems to me you were questioning the applicability of dino HDEOs, compared to the performance you might expect from the high-dollar PAOs. Did I mis-enterpret your statements and question?
Then you asked this, referring to dino HDEOs: "... but what's the opinions out there for use in the twin cams with their high temps?" and I gave a specific example of how an HDEO is designed for high temps in a diesel, and how those temps are comparable to a TC engine.
Then you stated this: "Thanks for any feedback." Gosh, I presumed this meant all manners of contribution were acceptable; perhaps I misunderstood.
And then this from you: "The whole point of the post was to try to get opinions on the HDEO oil’s listed". Ummmm - isn't that what you got? I'm sorry if I wasn't specific enough. Delvac - great stuff. Rotella - excellent. Mystik JT8 - very worthy. I consider them all fine quality HDEO products.
You also said this: "I've used syn3, Mobil 1 15w40 and currently Amsoil 20w50" and this: "My OCI is 3000 to 3500 normally."
So I stated this: "Geeze - most guys dump the oil out of their Harley LONG before it's used up anyway, regardless of brand or grade." (I do belive you qualify as an example.)
Exactly where is it that you thought I got off topic?
I'll again offer the peace pipe for my tone. But, golly, my answers were spot on, and I don't know how you saw it otherwise.
P.S. - the amount of time one spends in the seat has nothing to do with the relationship of the engine to it's lubricant. My wife accumulates more driving miles than do I at times, due to the nature of her job. Does that make her more "lubricant savy"? Hardly!
Welcome to the site, BTW.
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This same argument got twisted around when we discussed the Harley "5um" filter and it's "need" for use on the TC engine. But when Wix bought some of the Harley "5um" super-duper filters and tested them for filter efficiency, they found that the Harley "5um" premium filter performed no better than the Wix 51348 (a widely used, common filter with no "special" attributes).
That is really interesting... is there online documentation of this study? Not doubting it at all, I just hoped to have a link for future reference.
Thanks,
Dan
That is really interesting... is there online documentation of this study? Not doubting it at all, I just hoped to have a link for future reference.
Thanks,
Dan
dnewton3
Staff member
Fuel Tanker Man - No, I don't know of online documentation.
There is a thread in either this section, or the filter section, regarding the question of the use "motorcycle" filters, IIRC.
The topic was basically a question about what makes a "motorcycle filter" specific to motorcycles. Most people here understand that the host vehicle has little to do with filter selection. Filters don't know or care (in general) if they are on a Harley, a Honda, a Camry, a boat motor, a lawn mower, a log splitter (you get the point). What does matter is engineering spec's regarding flow, size, efficiency, burst pressure, bypass setting, etc.
To that end, someone questioned the validity of the Wix website offering a 51348 for the TC Harleys, and how that relates to Harleys "need" of a "5um" super premium filter. One of our members emailed Wix regarding their recommendation of a "normal" 51348 (20um) filter for a Harley "5um" application. The answer from Wix was that they had bought some of the "5um" filters and tested them, and found them no more efficient than a "traditional" filter.
And the debate raged on ...
There is a thread in either this section, or the filter section, regarding the question of the use "motorcycle" filters, IIRC.
The topic was basically a question about what makes a "motorcycle filter" specific to motorcycles. Most people here understand that the host vehicle has little to do with filter selection. Filters don't know or care (in general) if they are on a Harley, a Honda, a Camry, a boat motor, a lawn mower, a log splitter (you get the point). What does matter is engineering spec's regarding flow, size, efficiency, burst pressure, bypass setting, etc.
To that end, someone questioned the validity of the Wix website offering a 51348 for the TC Harleys, and how that relates to Harleys "need" of a "5um" super premium filter. One of our members emailed Wix regarding their recommendation of a "normal" 51348 (20um) filter for a Harley "5um" application. The answer from Wix was that they had bought some of the "5um" filters and tested them, and found them no more efficient than a "traditional" filter.
And the debate raged on ...
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10-4... I'm sure the Wix 51348 is plenty good for the Harley engine.
Harley Davidson has made a veritable fortune by convincing their owners that they have to have "GENUINE~!!!" lol HD this and HD that or else your bike will explode.
I use Havoline and Valvoline oils in my 1994 Low Rider, and I've gotten fantastic results in UOA's using STP and AC Delco and Napa (Wix) car oil filters.
Dan
Harley Davidson has made a veritable fortune by convincing their owners that they have to have "GENUINE~!!!" lol HD this and HD that or else your bike will explode.
I use Havoline and Valvoline oils in my 1994 Low Rider, and I've gotten fantastic results in UOA's using STP and AC Delco and Napa (Wix) car oil filters.
Dan
"We've been over this time and time again. The heat in the Harley TC engine is no hotter than the heat in a turbo-charger on a light-duty diesel truck pulling a 10k pound travel trailer up the Rockies. Sustained EGTs can get up to 1250 degF, and short bursts can go as high as 1500 deg F. And the only thing cooling the turbo is the oil."
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
Cam53
Do your engine a big favor. Contact Salesrep here on this forum about getting a case of Schaeffer 20W-50 syn blend or 5W-50 full syn oil. These are specifically labeled for V-twin engines (code name for Harleys) and also each is one of the very best oils you can use. I use the 20W-50 syn blend in my Kawasaki and Suzuki, and both, subjectively, seem to run more freely with this oil. Objectively, I use the 5W-40 and 5W-30 in my turbo Volvo and Tundra for 10,000 mile oil drain intervals with excellent lab reports.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/705.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9001.pdf
Do your engine a big favor. Contact Salesrep here on this forum about getting a case of Schaeffer 20W-50 syn blend or 5W-50 full syn oil. These are specifically labeled for V-twin engines (code name for Harleys) and also each is one of the very best oils you can use. I use the 20W-50 syn blend in my Kawasaki and Suzuki, and both, subjectively, seem to run more freely with this oil. Objectively, I use the 5W-40 and 5W-30 in my turbo Volvo and Tundra for 10,000 mile oil drain intervals with excellent lab reports.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/705.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9001.pdf
Thanks for the links Ken2. I also found the discussion on filters very interesting. I have long felt that HD and others promoted hight cost oils,filters,parts etc. Thats why we all try to sort out the fact from [censored] and make an educated decision on what does the job at the best price.
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
And how much bigger is this diesel engine, and how much more HP/Torque than the bike? Sump capacity for both engines vs. each other's size is comparable.
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
And how much bigger is this diesel engine, and how much more HP/Torque than the bike? Sump capacity for both engines vs. each other's size is comparable.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
And how much bigger is this diesel engine, and how much more HP/Torque than the bike? Sump capacity for both engines vs. each other's size is comparable.
But..but..but Tim..the diesel motor runs at 1500 rpm all day, burns oil for fuel, and is liquid cooled.
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Just a little food for thought....how many quarts of oil did the engineers design this diesel to hold..4 qts. or 15 qts?
And how much bigger is this diesel engine, and how much more HP/Torque than the bike? Sump capacity for both engines vs. each other's size is comparable.
But..but..but Tim..the diesel motor runs at 1500 rpm all day, burns oil for fuel, and is liquid cooled.
That was my point, Both engines will approximate the same EGT's, Therefore, the HDEO will protect equally well in either engine.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
That was my point, Both engines will approximate the same EGT's, Therefore, the HDEO will protect equally well in either engine.
I would agree with you if the Harley had a reverse gear....
That was my point, Both engines will approximate the same EGT's, Therefore, the HDEO will protect equally well in either engine.
I would agree with you if the Harley had a reverse gear....
Originally Posted By: SKUNKY
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
That was my point, Both engines will approximate the same EGT's, Therefore, the HDEO will protect equally well in either engine.
I would agree with you if the Harley had a reverse gear....
Skunk--sure, sure, HD engines have no peer in the cycling world, they have set every land speed record and have won every race in every venue. The Japanese don't even try to compete with HD anymore, because HD engines are so technologically advanced. They have to have the finest lubricating elixirs or they will melt into a ball of high tech metal in a second. Besides, they are so impossible to fix with their unbelievably close tolerances and unobtainium alloy parts that no one could fix one anyway.
Ha-Ha Here's the real story.... you suckers pay so much more for those glorified lawnmower-engined, retro-clown-bikes that you're deathly afraid that something might happen to their delicate insides, so you take no chances with oil or filters. Grow-up and listen to some real experts here and quit making fun of good advice.
HD air-cooled engines present no great challenge to a good HDEO oil and to use anything else more expensive is just plain snobbery, anal-retentiveness, and obsessiveness.
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
That was my point, Both engines will approximate the same EGT's, Therefore, the HDEO will protect equally well in either engine.
I would agree with you if the Harley had a reverse gear....
Skunk--sure, sure, HD engines have no peer in the cycling world, they have set every land speed record and have won every race in every venue. The Japanese don't even try to compete with HD anymore, because HD engines are so technologically advanced. They have to have the finest lubricating elixirs or they will melt into a ball of high tech metal in a second. Besides, they are so impossible to fix with their unbelievably close tolerances and unobtainium alloy parts that no one could fix one anyway.
Ha-Ha Here's the real story.... you suckers pay so much more for those glorified lawnmower-engined, retro-clown-bikes that you're deathly afraid that something might happen to their delicate insides, so you take no chances with oil or filters. Grow-up and listen to some real experts here and quit making fun of good advice.
HD air-cooled engines present no great challenge to a good HDEO oil and to use anything else more expensive is just plain snobbery, anal-retentiveness, and obsessiveness.
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