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Colt AR-15 ... Need Some Education
- Thread starter SuperBusa
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For a clean AR-15, that's an OK price. You can pick up a brand new one for 1100-1200. Armalites can be a bit cheaper. I would stick with one of those, but if you're after cheap there are a bunch of knock-offs from various other manufacturers.
Seems like a pretty good price. It is it a Colt Sportser?
Sounds like a good price to me also. I looked at some because no one really knows for sure if there will be another ban on them, and the price I found new was 1100 for a S&W.
Colts are the top of the line as they say. Any Colt under $1K is a deal as they say.
Got some more info. It's a Colt SP1 (about 1-1/2 to 2 years old) in .223 cal - fired about 100 rnds. It has a flat top and a telescoping rear stock.
I'm told that the SP1 didn't originally come with the flat top or telescoping stock ... so apparently this AR has been modified with these pieces? If so, what does that mean? ... was the whole top receiver/barrel married with an SP1 bottom receiver? I'm not up on the mods possible on the ARs.
I'm told that the SP1 didn't originally come with the flat top or telescoping stock ... so apparently this AR has been modified with these pieces? If so, what does that mean? ... was the whole top receiver/barrel married with an SP1 bottom receiver? I'm not up on the mods possible on the ARs.
Originally Posted By: Familyguy
If it's not original, I personally wouldn't fool with it. God knows what else has been fiddled with and there are a wealth of [censored] replacement and/or "upgrade" parts available out there.
I hear ya ... I need to see this AR-15 in person at this point. What's fishy is that the owner claims it's 1.5 ~ 2 years old, but I think they stopped marking the lower receivers marked with "Model SP1" back around 1986 from the reading I've done (correct me if I'm wrong). Plus, if the flat top receiver is not original Colt factory then this thing could be a Frankenstein of miscellaneous parts. Will see it this weekend.
If it's not original, I personally wouldn't fool with it. God knows what else has been fiddled with and there are a wealth of [censored] replacement and/or "upgrade" parts available out there.
I hear ya ... I need to see this AR-15 in person at this point. What's fishy is that the owner claims it's 1.5 ~ 2 years old, but I think they stopped marking the lower receivers marked with "Model SP1" back around 1986 from the reading I've done (correct me if I'm wrong). Plus, if the flat top receiver is not original Colt factory then this thing could be a Frankenstein of miscellaneous parts. Will see it this weekend.
Yes Colt is a top tier manufacturer. They make some of the best AR's. Get more specs on the gun. SP1 is a really old designation. Also, find out the barrel twist. You will want a 1/7 or 1/9. The old Colt barrels were 1/12 and are practically useless with todays ammo. They require very light bullets which are considered "varmint" loads today.
I have a SP1 CAR and it was manufactured in 1980. There is no way that SP1 is 1-1.5 years old.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Yes Colt is a top tier manufacturer. They make some of the best AR's. Get more specs on the gun. SP1 is a really old designation. Also, find out the barrel twist. You will want a 1/7 or 1/9. The old Colt barrels were 1/12 and are practically useless with todays ammo. They require very light bullets which are considered "varmint" loads today.
I got the s/n and found some info on the 'net that says the lower receiver is 1973 vintage. The upper receiver is a "flat top" (not sure if Colt or aftermarket), and the barrel is 1/7 twist ... so it sounds like this might have been a modern build-up on a pre-ban lower receiver. I'm told that the gun's exterior looks close to "new", so maybe someone had a virtually unused (1973 vintage) lower around and decided to build his own.
Originally Posted By: ALS
I have a SP1 CAR and it was manufactured in 1980. There is no way that SP1 is 1-1.5 years old.
Exactly. I found out the seller bought it used (at a dealer) 1 - 1.5 years ago. So it's all starting to make sense.
I'm going to look at this thing this weekend - can go fire it too if I want. Is there anything I should be looking out for? I need to learn how to do a basic tear down, as I'd like to look at the wear on the carrier, etc to see if it's been used heavily or not.
How can I tell if the flat top is a true Colt part?
Yes Colt is a top tier manufacturer. They make some of the best AR's. Get more specs on the gun. SP1 is a really old designation. Also, find out the barrel twist. You will want a 1/7 or 1/9. The old Colt barrels were 1/12 and are practically useless with todays ammo. They require very light bullets which are considered "varmint" loads today.
I got the s/n and found some info on the 'net that says the lower receiver is 1973 vintage. The upper receiver is a "flat top" (not sure if Colt or aftermarket), and the barrel is 1/7 twist ... so it sounds like this might have been a modern build-up on a pre-ban lower receiver. I'm told that the gun's exterior looks close to "new", so maybe someone had a virtually unused (1973 vintage) lower around and decided to build his own.
Originally Posted By: ALS
I have a SP1 CAR and it was manufactured in 1980. There is no way that SP1 is 1-1.5 years old.
Exactly. I found out the seller bought it used (at a dealer) 1 - 1.5 years ago. So it's all starting to make sense.
I'm going to look at this thing this weekend - can go fire it too if I want. Is there anything I should be looking out for? I need to learn how to do a basic tear down, as I'd like to look at the wear on the carrier, etc to see if it's been used heavily or not.
How can I tell if the flat top is a true Colt part?
$850 would be a lot of money for the rifle.
You can get a Stag Arms, DPMS, or Bushmaster in that same ballpark that would serve you well.
New factory Colt's are out there right now. You might have to pay $300 more for one. But they might command more money in a future ban.
For a quality rifle, I'd take the Stag Arms every time.
You can get a Stag Arms, DPMS, or Bushmaster in that same ballpark that would serve you well.
New factory Colt's are out there right now. You might have to pay $300 more for one. But they might command more money in a future ban.
For a quality rifle, I'd take the Stag Arms every time.
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
$850 would be a lot of money for the rifle.
Even if it was all Colt parts? I won't know until I see it this weekend, but it could be a pre-ban (1973) lower receiver on newer Colt upper half. It has a (probably cheap) scope, sling and telescoping butt stock too.
If the upper stuff is not Colt, what do you think it's worth if all in good condition?
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
You can get a Stag Arms, DPMS, or Bushmaster in that same ballpark that would serve you well.
New factory Colt's are out there right now. You might have to pay $300 more for one. But they might command more money in a future ban.
For a quality rifle, I'd take the Stag Arms every time.
I'll take a look on the 'net of the brands you mention above. Any particular models to consider?
$850 would be a lot of money for the rifle.
Even if it was all Colt parts? I won't know until I see it this weekend, but it could be a pre-ban (1973) lower receiver on newer Colt upper half. It has a (probably cheap) scope, sling and telescoping butt stock too.
If the upper stuff is not Colt, what do you think it's worth if all in good condition?
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
You can get a Stag Arms, DPMS, or Bushmaster in that same ballpark that would serve you well.
New factory Colt's are out there right now. You might have to pay $300 more for one. But they might command more money in a future ban.
For a quality rifle, I'd take the Stag Arms every time.
I'll take a look on the 'net of the brands you mention above. Any particular models to consider?
Ugh...it's a frankenstein. Save yourself a lot of grief and pass this one up. That's way overpriced for a "roll your own" AR. If you absolutely MUST subject yourself to all the pitfalls of a home grown AR, there is no way in [censored] I'd pay more than about $400-500. But even then, you've got to think about what your time is worth when you inevitably have issues with it later.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Originally Posted By: Familyguy
Ugh...it's a frankenstein. Save yourself a lot of grief and pass this one up. That's way overpriced for a "roll your own" AR. If you absolutely MUST subject yourself to all the pitfalls of a home grown AR, there is no way in [censored] I'd pay more than about $400-500. But even then, you've got to think about what your time is worth when you inevitably have issues with it later.
Good luck.
I hear ya, and regard your advice.
But one question - would you feel the same if it was ALL Colt parts but with a pre-ban Colt lower receiver on it? -- a "100% Colt Frankenstein" so to speak.
If it's a Colt pre-ban lower with all aftermarket top end parts (or Colt barrel on aftermarket flat top receiver), then yes, I'm leery of the purchase for $850.
Ugh...it's a frankenstein. Save yourself a lot of grief and pass this one up. That's way overpriced for a "roll your own" AR. If you absolutely MUST subject yourself to all the pitfalls of a home grown AR, there is no way in [censored] I'd pay more than about $400-500. But even then, you've got to think about what your time is worth when you inevitably have issues with it later.
Good luck.
I hear ya, and regard your advice.
But one question - would you feel the same if it was ALL Colt parts but with a pre-ban Colt lower receiver on it? -- a "100% Colt Frankenstein" so to speak.
If it's a Colt pre-ban lower with all aftermarket top end parts (or Colt barrel on aftermarket flat top receiver), then yes, I'm leery of the purchase for $850.
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: Familyguy
Ugh...it's a frankenstein. Save yourself a lot of grief and pass this one up. That's way overpriced for a "roll your own" AR. If you absolutely MUST subject yourself to all the pitfalls of a home grown AR, there is no way in [censored] I'd pay more than about $400-500. But even then, you've got to think about what your time is worth when you inevitably have issues with it later.
Good luck.
I hear ya, and regard your advice.
But one question - would you feel the same if it was ALL Colt parts but with a pre-ban Colt lower receiver on it? -- a "100% Colt Frankenstein" so to speak.
If it's a Colt pre-ban lower with all aftermarket top end parts (or Colt barrel on aftermarket flat top receiver), then yes, I'm leery of the purchase for $850.
I'm assuming that since you keep mentioning "pre-ban" even in light of all the other noted shortcomings, your end game is that you want to be able to add assault rifle bling without risking going to the pokey. Got it.
However, there is no way you can know if that gun is legal or not since it isn't clear who built it, when it was built, etc. A "pre-ban" lower receiver is really a meaningless term when it comes to keeping your patootie out of the klink.
Traditionally, the frame or receiver of a firearm has been legally equivalent to the firearm itself. 18 U.S.C. sec. 921 (a) (3). This has led some people to believe that a pre-ban receiver, that is, one manufactured before 9/13/94, is the same as a pre-ban "assault weapon." Unfortunately, this is not correct.
Since a lower receiver, by itself, does not have any of the listed banned features, BATF doesn't consider it an "assault weapon." This is a good thing, since it means that manufacturers may still make the receivers. However, this also means that a pre-ban lower receiver is not an "assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on [9/13/94]," and therefore not exempted from the ban. 18 U.S.C. 922 (v) (2).
In essence, there are three categories of AR-15 lower receivers: those manufactured before 9/13/94, which were assembled into "assault weapons" on or before that date; pre-ban lower receivers which were _not_ assembled into "assault weapons" on 9/13/94; and post-ban manufactured lower receivers. The first class can be re-assembled into an "assault weapon," and can be changed (say, from a fixed-stock model to a collapsing stock). The latter two classes may not be assembled into an "assault weapon."
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. This information is offered in the belief that is accurate, and the hope that it will be useful, but I cannot guarantee the accuracy or applicability of this information, and I will not be held liable for any damages incurred on account of reliance on this document.
The above is from here with a few grammatical fixes by me:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2b124.html
And to answer your question....No, I would not buy an AR-15 that had been assembled from random parts (even if they were all Colt manufactured). Do yourself a favor and stick with something that has a clear chain of custody as an assembled rifle. That's likely to lead to the least chance of both breaking the law and of getting a rifle that has reliability issues.
Good luck.
Originally Posted By: Familyguy
Ugh...it's a frankenstein. Save yourself a lot of grief and pass this one up. That's way overpriced for a "roll your own" AR. If you absolutely MUST subject yourself to all the pitfalls of a home grown AR, there is no way in [censored] I'd pay more than about $400-500. But even then, you've got to think about what your time is worth when you inevitably have issues with it later.
Good luck.
I hear ya, and regard your advice.
But one question - would you feel the same if it was ALL Colt parts but with a pre-ban Colt lower receiver on it? -- a "100% Colt Frankenstein" so to speak.
If it's a Colt pre-ban lower with all aftermarket top end parts (or Colt barrel on aftermarket flat top receiver), then yes, I'm leery of the purchase for $850.
I'm assuming that since you keep mentioning "pre-ban" even in light of all the other noted shortcomings, your end game is that you want to be able to add assault rifle bling without risking going to the pokey. Got it.
However, there is no way you can know if that gun is legal or not since it isn't clear who built it, when it was built, etc. A "pre-ban" lower receiver is really a meaningless term when it comes to keeping your patootie out of the klink.
Traditionally, the frame or receiver of a firearm has been legally equivalent to the firearm itself. 18 U.S.C. sec. 921 (a) (3). This has led some people to believe that a pre-ban receiver, that is, one manufactured before 9/13/94, is the same as a pre-ban "assault weapon." Unfortunately, this is not correct.
Since a lower receiver, by itself, does not have any of the listed banned features, BATF doesn't consider it an "assault weapon." This is a good thing, since it means that manufacturers may still make the receivers. However, this also means that a pre-ban lower receiver is not an "assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on [9/13/94]," and therefore not exempted from the ban. 18 U.S.C. 922 (v) (2).
In essence, there are three categories of AR-15 lower receivers: those manufactured before 9/13/94, which were assembled into "assault weapons" on or before that date; pre-ban lower receivers which were _not_ assembled into "assault weapons" on 9/13/94; and post-ban manufactured lower receivers. The first class can be re-assembled into an "assault weapon," and can be changed (say, from a fixed-stock model to a collapsing stock). The latter two classes may not be assembled into an "assault weapon."
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. This information is offered in the belief that is accurate, and the hope that it will be useful, but I cannot guarantee the accuracy or applicability of this information, and I will not be held liable for any damages incurred on account of reliance on this document.
The above is from here with a few grammatical fixes by me:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIID2b124.html
And to answer your question....No, I would not buy an AR-15 that had been assembled from random parts (even if they were all Colt manufactured). Do yourself a favor and stick with something that has a clear chain of custody as an assembled rifle. That's likely to lead to the least chance of both breaking the law and of getting a rifle that has reliability issues.
Good luck.
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Actually 850 is an OK price for what you have described. It will be hard to determine who made the upper reciever. It MOST likely will not have all Colt parts and will be a budget upper on a Colt lower. I would offer him 750-800 if the guns looks nice and you like it. You can easily sell it for what you bought it for if you change your mind later or find a gun you like better.
Stay away from DPMS and Bushmaster. They sell a lot of guns but cut corners.
Check out the infamous AR "chart" It is not the end-all-be-all, but it does have a lot of good information.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
Stay away from DPMS and Bushmaster. They sell a lot of guns but cut corners.
Check out the infamous AR "chart" It is not the end-all-be-all, but it does have a lot of good information.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html
The Colt name has as well a better resale value. The short barrels ruin the lethality of the 223 ammo due to the reduction to the velocity of the bullet. ,just ruins it.
bubbatime, in the chart you posted, I noticed the links to the ammo oracle are broken. A mirror of the original can be found here: http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm
Lots of good info in the ammo oracle. It really helped me out with ammo and barrel twist questions when I was buying my first AR.
Lots of good info in the ammo oracle. It really helped me out with ammo and barrel twist questions when I was buying my first AR.
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