Rotella T in Goldwing -- A Series of UOAs

[TucsonDon]

Previously I posted a report with three UOAs here.

I'm intending to run Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 in my Goldwing here on out, with UOAs for at least another four or five changes, just to see trends. I thought I'd post the latest findings. Enjoy!

I'm beginning to conclude this shows Rotella T 15W-40 CJ-4 is an okay oil for my Goldwing, don't you think?

(By the way, I am thrilled with the iron and copper numbers!)

Rotella T 15W-40 CJ-4 UOAs from 2007 GL1800 Goldwing
(With a Rotella 5W-40 synthetic CI-4+ and several changes with no UOAs in the middle)
Reminder: The Goldwing is a water-cooled six-cylinder motorcycle with a shared sump design. Typical highway RPMs in 5th gear at 80mph is about 3300.

Analysis by Blackstone Laboratories, http://www.blackstone-labs.com

The 15W-40 CJ-4 is shown in blue, the one 5W-40 CI-4+ is in red, all else in black.

.................... Before ....... First .... Second ...... Third ..... Fourth ...... Fifth ...... Sixth ... future UOA
..................... First ..... Rotella ... Rotella .... Rotella ... Mobil 4T .... Rotella .... Rotella ... future UOA
....................... UOA ...... 15W-40 ..... 5W-40 ..... 15W-40 ..... 10W-40 ..... 15W-40 ..... 15W-40 ... future UOA
.................................... CJ-4 ..... CI-4+ ....... CJ-4 .................... CJ-4 ....... CJ-4 ... future UOA
.................................... Conv ..... Synth ....... Conv ...... Synth ....... Conv ....... Conv ... future UOA

UOA Performed? ......... No ......... Yes ....... Yes ........ Yes ......... No ......... No ........ Yes ... future UOA

Miles on Oil .......... See ....... 2,724 ..... 2,995 ...... 2,774 ...... 2,869 ...... 2,782 ...... 2,890 ... future UOA
Miles on Bike ........ Note ....... 6,386 ..... 9,381 ..... 12,155 ..... 15,024 ..... 17,806 ..... 20,696 ... future UOA
Date of Oil Change .. Below ...... Jul'07 .... Oct'07 ..... Feb'08 ..... Jun'08 ..... Dec'08 ..... May'09 ... future UOA
Days on Oil .......................... 59 ........ 75 ........ 126 ........ 119 ........ 188 ........ 148 ... future UOA
Average Miles/Day** .................. 46 ........ 40 ......... 22 ......... 24 ......... 15 ......... 20 ... future UOA

Oil Filter .......................... OEM ....... OEM ........ OEM ........ OEM ........ OEM ........ OEM ... future UOA

Aluminum .............. n/a ........... 6 ......... 5 .......... 5 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 4 ... future UOA
Chromium .............. n/a ........... 0 ......... 1 .......... 1 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA
Iron .................. n/a .......... 12 ........ 12 .......... 9 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 8 ... future UOA
Copper ................ n/a .......... 20 ........ 17 ......... 14 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 8 ... future UOA
Lead .................. n/a ........... 1 ......... 1 .......... 1 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 2 ... future UOA
Tin ................... n/a ........... 0 ......... 0 .......... 2 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 2 ... future UOA
Molybdenum ............ n/a .......... 17 ......... 6 .......... 3 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 3 ... future UOA
Nickel ................ n/a ........... 0 ......... 0 .......... 0 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA
Manganese ............. n/a ........... 1 ......... 1 .......... 0 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA
Silver ................ n/a ........... 0 ......... 0 .......... 0 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA
Titanium .............. n/a ........... 0 ......... 0 .......... 0 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA
Potassium ............. n/a ........... 5 ......... 4 .......... 5 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 5 ... future UOA
Boron ..................n/a .......... 20 ......... 4 ......... 19 ........ n/a ........ n/a ......... 26 ... future UOA
Silicon ............... n/a ........... 8 ......... 8 .......... 8 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 6 ... future UOA
Sodium ................ n/a ........... 3 ......... 5 .......... 3 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 3 ... future UOA
Calcium ............... n/a ........ 2021 ...... 3213 ....... 2414 ........ n/a ........ n/a ....... 2119 ... future UOA
Magnesium ............. n/a .......... 16 ........ 13 .......... 8 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 7 ... future UOA
Phosphorus ............ n/a ......... 868 ...... 1114 ........ 993 ........ n/a ........ n/a ........ 930 ... future UOA
Zinc .................. n/a ........ 1085 ...... 1441 ....... 1190 ........ n/a ........ n/a ....... 1135 ... future UOA
Barium ................ n/a ........... 1 ......... 0 .......... 0 ........ n/a ........ n/a .......... 0 ... future UOA

SUS@210F .............. n/a ........ 69.5 ...... 69.8 ....... 69.8 ........ n/a ........ n/a ....... 71.5 ... future UOA
cSt@100C .............. n/a ......... n/a ..... 12.91 ...... 12.91 ........ n/a ........ n/a ...... 13.35 ... future UOA
Flashpoint in F ....... n/a ......... n/a ....... 390 ........ 385 ........ n/a ........ n/a ........ 400 ... future UOA

SUS "should" -- 68 to 78
cST "should" -- 12.4 to 15.3

** -- "Average Miles / Day" is a crude indicator of the intensity of the riding on this oil change.

Note: Before first UOA -- 0 to 855 miles: dealer fill, presumably Honda GN4; 855 to 3662 miles: Amsoil 10W-40
..... motorcycle oil; 3662 to 6386: Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 with UOA as shown above.

 

[TucsonDon]

It occurs to me that the format I have for that may look ugly on a screen that's not as wide as mine. How does that look to others ... do the lines wrap and look awful?

I've also noticed that Internet Explorer has different behavior than Firefox and Chrome ... some of the lines are centered when there's no tags to call for centering.

 

[Ausfahrt]

That looks like a great UOA to me. This engine will probably outlive both of us. Gotta love Honda engines.

 

[sunruh]

don,
how many times have i told you that this is all wrong?

you *need* to stimulate the economy by buy the expensive oils with the nicely printed picture of a motorcycle on it to help out!

do your part!

what are you, a commie?

some car guys might be envious of your report!

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
how many times have i told you that this is all wrong?
I'm a slow learner! Work with me!

I'm interested in the trend, and I'm looking to hold the oil variable constant. My hope is the wear numbers will stay low from this point forward.

 

[dnewton3]

Come on, T-Don, what were you thinking? Don't you know that only a high end, group VI or V, $8/quart motorcycle specific oil will protect your engine/tranny?

I mean, seriously, why let facts and evidence cloud the decision? What manner of man are you to let common sense, logic, and data to lead your deicion to use Rotella. And especially the CJ-4 variant, which eveyone knows will end in the death of your ride, due to lower TBN.

Cheeseandrice, you're going to destroy a perfectly good ride.
In about 500k miles or more ...

Probably why I also run dino HDEO in most of my stuff.

 

[RWEST]

Quote:
It occurs to me that the format I have for that may look ugly on a screen that's not as wide as mine. How does that look to others ... do the lines wrap and look awful?

Yes.

BTW - Our 'Wing group (3 '07 & '08 GL1800's) just replaced the OEM dino with RTS 5-40, and they're all amazed at how much more smoothly they shift.

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: RWEST
Quote:
do the lines wrap and look awful?
Yes

Yeah ... I thought it might.

Okay ... here's a much more spartan representation. Does it still wrap? I don't know of any way using bulletin board codes to prevent wrapping.

UOAs from 2007 GL1800 Goldwing
Element ........... Al . Cr . Fe . Cu . Pb . Sn . Mo . Ni . Mn . Ag . Ti . K .. B . Si . Na ... Ca . Mg .... P ... Zn . Ba
==========================================================================================================================
....Bike Miles
1 - 6,386 Miles .... 6 .. 0 . 12 . 20 .. 1 .. 0 . 17 .. 0 .. 1 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 20 .. 8 .. 3 . 2021 . 16 .. 868 . 1085 .. 1
2 - 9,381 Miles .... 5 .. 1 . 12 . 17 .. 1 .. 0 .. 6 .. 0 .. 1 .. 0 . 0 .. 4 .. 4 .. 8 .. 5 . 3213 . 13 . 1114 . 1441 .. 0
3 - 12,155 Miles ... 5 .. 1 .. 9 . 14 .. 1 .. 2 .. 3 .. 0 .. 0 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 19 .. 8 .. 3 . 2414 .. 8 .. 993 . 1190 .. 0
4 - 15,024 Miles (no UOA)
5 - 17,806 Miles (no UOA)
6 - 20,696 Miles ... 4 .. 0 .. 8 .. 8 .. 2 .. 2 .. 3 .. 0 .. 0 .. 0 . 0 .. 5 . 26 .. 6 .. 3 . 2119 .. 7 .. 930 . 1135 .. 0
==========================================================================================================================
1 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,724 on oil ... SUS@212F=69.5 ... cSt@100C=n/a ..... Flashpoint=n/a
2 - Rotella 5W-40 CI-4+ ... 2,995 on oil ... SUS@210F=69.8 ... cSt@100C=12.91 ... Flashpoint=390
3 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,774 on oil ... SUS@210F=69.8 ... cSt@100C=12.91 ... Flashpoint=385
4 - Mobil 4T 10W-40 ....... 2,869 on oil ... (no UOA)
5 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,782 on oil ... (no UOA)
6 - Rotella 15W-40 CJ-4 ... 2,809 on oil ... SUS@210F=71.5 ... cSt@100C=13.35 ... Flashpoint=400
SUS "should" = 68 to 78 ... cSt "should" = 12.4 to 15.3
==========================================================================================================================
Element Key:
Aluminum - Al...Tin - Sn..........Titanium - Ti...Calcium - Ca
Chromium - Cr...Molybdenum - Mo...Potassium - K...Magnesium - Mg
Iron - Fe.......Nickel - Ni.......Boron - B.......Phosphorus - P
Copper - Cu.....Manganese - Mn....Silicon - Si....Zinc - Zn
Lead - Pb.......Silver - Ag.......Sodium - Na.....Barium - Ba
==========================================================================================================================

 

[RWEST]

Excellent, Don. Very plain/readable.. Kudos..

The difference in Calcium, Phosphorous and Zinc is quite obvious between the CI-4+ and CJ-4 stuff, eh? Now, does it all actually make a difference or not???

Run it a couple hundred thousand miles, switching back/forth between the two Rotellas, and let us know...

 

[TucsonDon]

Originally Posted By: RWEST
The difference in Calcium, Phosphorous and Zinc is quite obvious between the CI-4+ and CJ-4 stuff, eh? Now, does it all actually make a difference or not???

It sure is obvious. That's why I color-coded them as different -- to draw attention to the fact they're different specs.

The EPA mandated move to CJ-4 probably meant they had to drop some of those ... P and Zn a bit for sure to lower the ash; Ca for reasons I don't know. I'm fascinated what the oil engineers thinking was from that given ... no doubt a lot of potential tradeoffs presented themselves. They went with more Boron, that's clear. There may well be things that don't show on a spectral analysis.

Originally Posted By: RWEST
Run it a couple hundred thousand miles, switching back/forth between the two Rotellas, and let us know...

Roger that!

Actually, the 5W-40 is now CJ-4 as well. So no more load on P and Zn, though I maintain I don't need it. Given my wear numbers, I'm not sure why I would.

I'm going heads-down 15W-40 conventional from this point out. I'm going to hold that variable constant. If wear numbers continue to decrease, I'll be very happy; if they level out at their current points I'll merely be happy.

 

[dnewton3]

Here's a case where some of the additves can have intended, or un-inteded, effects.

For example, Calcium and Magnesium contribute to both wear reduction AND acid reduction. So the changes in the formulation between CI-4(+) and CJ-4 may or may not be intended as one might think.

What is apparent is that the wear results do not directly follow the reduction of some of the add-pack. Why? Well, it is generally accepted that to make the CJ-4 oils, better base stocks were used to make up for the loss of some of the add pack levels mandated by the EPA. Even though the TBN went down, the base oil was manipulated (upgraded) to make up for this other disparity. P and Zn also went down, but again, the base oil is probably constructed to take this into account.

Dino HDEOs are getting so good that there really is little reason to ever consider a "synthetic" for typical use. "Synthetic" fluids will most certainly last "longer" in service, but they don't tyically produce "better" wear results in "normal" OCI applications. I'll qualify that statment by saying they don't provide a ROI equal to their cost. If you spend 2x more money for a "synthetic" such as RTS, are you getting 2x less wear for the same OCI? In most all applications, the answer is "NO - you don't." You would have to get the same wear metal results with 2x the OCI to equal the cost ratio.

I have well over 100 UOAs data logged into my system now, regarding diesel applications, comparing dino and synthetic fluids from all brands. But I often also look at HDEO UOAs in other equipment. T-Don's runs show what I've seen in other applications. In general, synthetics don't protect much better (at least statistically); they last longer in service. If T-Don ran longer OCIs, the disparity between wear results would start to become apparent. But given his operating environment, there is really no advantage to synthetic fluids.

In fact, there are UOAs that show 3k mile OCIs are a bit of a waste as well. Typically, you could run dino fluids out to 5k miles easily, and likely more, and still see little statistical difference between dino and synthetic fluid wear results. In diesel applications, the disparity does not show up until around 8.7k miles, per my study. In a Goldwing, I suspect similar results would likely present themselves. It might not be 8.7k miles; perhaps it would be 7.5k miles, or 9.0k? Don't really know because there is very little data in this regard. People who run motorcycles often "pamper" their bikes and OCI way before the oil is used up, regardless of base stock and brand. So we have really little hard evidence to go on regarding HDEOs in m/c's. But the presumptive thoughts are sound; 7.5k miles on dino is typically doable in most shared sump water cooled equipment.

Clearly, the bike is starting to wear in, and get into its groove. If TucsonDon were to run 5k miles dino Rotella UOAs, would we see similar UOA results? I expect so. The wear metals might be a tad higher due to longer exposure, but the total wear and wear rates would still suggest the continued use of dino HDEO fluids; a great performance/dollar ratio exists in all the major brands of dino CJ-4.

 

[TucsonDon]

Excellent write-up there, dnewton3. That helped clear up some things in my mind.

I'm thinking about pushing my OCIs out to 4K and then perhaps longer still. But I get the itch to "to some work" on the bike around 3K, which is why the oil gets swapped out.

On many sites people scoff at Honda's 8K oil change recommendation using their GN4 oil ... but from what I'm reading here, that might not be all the preposterous. 8K on that oil may not be ideal, but it may not be as horrible as some think.

* * *
What's the purpose of Boron in oil? That seems to be one of the things that went up with CJ-4.

 

[dnewton3]

They (8k mile OCIs) are not as preposterous as people think.

I have a friend with an 1996 ST1100 with 126k miles on it. He uses Honda dealer for service at regular scheduled maintenance points. Only Honda filters and GN-4. Still runs great; his daily commuter! He does not baby, nor beat on, his bike. He just uses it the way it was intended.

If it can run that far on what is typically average oil/filter (GN-4 is certainly nothing to write home about), then just how far can it go with a quality HDEO and a high end filter such as PP1, Wix, or the like?

I always giggle a bit when I read of people running $8/quart oil OCI'd every 2k miles; as if their bike wouldn't last otherwise.
(Unless it's a Harley ...

)

 

[TucsonDon]

I won't touch the Harley comment!

Is Wix a good filter brand? I just got the oil changed in my car, and it looks like they put a Wix in.

When my Goldwing gets to 3K miles (my normal OCI) I'm going to swallow hard and keep riding. I'm going to stretch to 4K and UOA. Then probably 5K and UOA.

All with Rotella 15W-40. That's my oil now.

I just wish I could score a frickin' T-shirt from them. I'm such a Rotella hack on all these forums that I figure that's the least they could do for me.

 

[RWEST]

Quote:
Is Wix a good filter brand?

Yep!! Very highly regarded.

We run the WIX 51365/NAPA 1365 on our GoldWings (that same number fits a bunch of our John Deere and Kubota tractors, too!!). Use WIX with confidence.

 

[boraticus]

I run Rotella T 15W40 in all of my four stroke motorcycles and ATVs. I've been changing it in the ATVs at around 500 miles due to higher engine revs and dusty or wet operating environments. My ATVs have Suzuki 500cc liquid cooled engines. I dropped the oil on one a couple days ago. It had close to 600 miles on it. Other than being a shade darker in colour, it looked pretty fresh. I'm thinking of extending OCI on the ATVs to around 1000 miles. My KLR650 get 3000 mile OCIs. For some reason, the shifting gets a little clumsy around that point. Not objectionably so but not as slick as it is with fresh Rotella in it.

My Valkyrie gets 5000 mile OCIs. After reading TDon's thread, I'm confident that kind of mileage will not be a burden for an engine of that caliber using an oil of that quality.

 

[John-r]

I use the Rotella T 15W-40 in my Goldwing too, works great, a lot cheaper than motorcycle oil.

 

[sunruh]

Originally Posted By: John-r
I use the Rotella T 15W-40 in my Goldwing too, works great, a lot cheaper than motorcycle oil.


if the oil is in your motorcycle.....isnt that motorcycle oil???

 

[RWEST]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
Originally Posted By: John-r
I use the Rotella T 15W-40 in my Goldwing too, works great, a lot cheaper than motorcycle oil.


if the oil is in your motorcycle.....isnt that motorcycle oil???

Heheheh..