Attn thick oil guys,20W50 vs 10W40 film strength.

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I have driven the I35 stretch from Corpus Christi to San Antonio at least a hundred times and the I 10 stretch from San antonio through Elpaso a a dozen times.
80 Mph Cruising in the summer with the AC on full blast is not that hard on the vehicle or the oil. I have UOA's somewhere when I used to think it was tough and the fact is that it is easy service.
 
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
I have driven the I35 stretch from Corpus Christi to San Antonio at least a hundred times and the I 10 stretch from San antonio through Elpaso a a dozen times.
80 Mph Cruising in the summer with the AC on full blast is not that hard on the vehicle or the oil. I have UOA's somewhere when I used to think it was tough and the fact is that it is easy service.
I agree. Any type of highway driving is always the easiest on the vehicle. Oh and it's IH 37 that goes from S.A. to Corpus.
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Originally Posted By: Silber Igel
. . .

Case in point... my Cammy Hybrid. I'm coming to the conclusion that putting in anything but a 0W or 5W-20 is a bad idea. Bad idea indeed. A 20 weight is more than adequate ... over kill really ... the way this engine operates. What it really needs is a 0W or 5W or somewhere between that and the 20 almost all the time. I've never seen the oil temp above 150F/65C even after a fast run on a hot day. Which is why TOYO recommends a 0W-20 as the preferred grade.


I agree. I'm in the process of trying a fill of the classic "thick 30" GC in my Camry Hybrid. I'm not sure it's necessarily a "bad" idea, but I see no advantage at all. The engine sounds the same, with maybe the slightest hint of slower revving. No sounds of suffering on start. The noticeable difference is the mileage hit, which shows clearly on the instruments. It's at least a 3 mpg hit on average, probably worse on the highway where the ICE runs virtually all the time.

I'd choose the thinnest possible oil for any given engine design.
 
Originally Posted By: ekpolk

I'd choose the thinnest possible oil for any given engine design.


You need to come over to bruceblend 0w-10 if you're going to feel the true power of the light side of the Force.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: ekpolk

I'd choose the thinnest possible oil for any given engine design.


You need to come over to bruceblend 0w-10 if you're going to feel the true power of the light side of the Force.


Bruceblend .... at Autozone, of course!
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Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Silber Igel
. . .

Case in point... my Cammy Hybrid. I'm coming to the conclusion that putting in anything but a 0W or 5W-20 is a bad idea. Bad idea indeed. A 20 weight is more than adequate ... over kill really ... the way this engine operates. What it really needs is a 0W or 5W or somewhere between that and the 20 almost all the time. I've never seen the oil temp above 150F/65C even after a fast run on a hot day. Which is why TOYO recommends a 0W-20 as the preferred grade.


I agree. I'm in the process of trying a fill of the classic "thick 30" GC in my Camry Hybrid. I'm not sure it's necessarily a "bad" idea, but I see no advantage at all. The engine sounds the same, with maybe the slightest hint of slower revving. No sounds of suffering on start. The noticeable difference is the mileage hit, which shows clearly on the instruments. It's at least a 3 mpg hit on average, probably worse on the highway where the ICE runs virtually all the time.

I'd choose the thinnest possible oil for any given engine design.


EK,

I'm amazed at how long it takes to get the oil up to temperature in the HyCam. I've never yet seen it above 152F. These Atkinson engines just don't make oil hot with their intermittent duty cycle. How very, very strange!

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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

I'll see if I can find the picture and throw it on Photobucket, then I'll put a link here later.



Done:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/440_Magnum/100_3031.jpg?t=1243445967



Man that`s a cooooooool picture!!!!! I saved it on my computer
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Ok,now to the question,or should I say,the poll. If y`all were to choose between Valvoline wb 10W40 or Pennzoil yb 10W40,which would you choose? The oil that get the most votes will be my next fill
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I've been using mobil 1 15-50 in my '73 Cadillac Coupe DeVille for 11 years. It wasn't a daily driver until recently but it has about 75,000 on the engine.

I just pulled the pan, put on a new intake and valve cover gaskets and it looked like brand new inside. There was a VERY THIN grey film on the bottom of the oil pan which didn't even cover the entir bottom.

The 15-50 seems to work fine for me in THIS car. I'm in Utah now and there was about five years there where I changed to 10-30 EP in the winter but last winter I stayed with the 15-50. I think I'll be going back to the 10-30 in the winter or maybe Mobil 1 TD 5-40 just to be on the safe side. It CAN get extremely cold in Utah.

BTW. There IS a section down on I-10 that is posted 80MPH. There is now a section of I-15 in Utah south of Provo that they are "testing" with an 80MPH speed limit.

They may as well. That's about what everyone is running out in the wide open spaces around the country. Anywhere from 75 to 90 MPH. The posted speed limits really don't apply out in the real desolate areas of the country.

How do I know? I was an OTR truck driver for the last 11 years. Not any more though.
 
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I'd use YB 10W-40, if you're going to that. As I said earlier, I'd stick with the 20W-50 grade that has given you good success so far.
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500

I just pulled the pan, put on a new intake and valve cover gaskets and it looked like brand new inside. There was a VERY THIN grey film on the bottom of the oil pan which didn't even cover the entir bottom.


You can tell THAT engine once ran on leaded fuel! Its amazing how long the lead will stay on internal components after switching to unleaded, but then you really don't have that many total miles yet. I'd love to send an oil sample from an engine that ran for years on leaded to Blackstone and see how many PPM are getting back in the oil. Back "in the day" when we'd pull valve covers or pans on semi-neglected engines running on leaded fuel, the deposits would be shiny silver because of all the lead. But it didn't hurt me any...
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500

I just pulled the pan, put on a new intake and valve cover gaskets and it looked like brand new inside. There was a VERY THIN grey film on the bottom of the oil pan which didn't even cover the entir bottom.


You can tell THAT engine once ran on leaded fuel! Its amazing how long the lead will stay on internal components after switching to unleaded, but then you really don't have that many total miles yet. I'd love to send an oil sample from an engine that ran for years on leaded to Blackstone and see how many PPM are getting back in the oil. Back "in the day" when we'd pull valve covers or pans on semi-neglected engines running on leaded fuel, the deposits would be shiny silver because of all the lead. But it didn't hurt me any...
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The engine was rebuilt about 75,000 miles ago. It has never had leaded fuel in it and believe it or not the owners manual recommends unleaded. I was surprised myself when I found that out. I think those huge V-8's were under the EPA's gun long before the smaller engines were.

I have run "Lead Substitute" in it but now I just add Marvel Mystery oil to the gas every fill up. Sometimes I don't even do that.

I'm thinking the minute amount of silver in the bottom of the pan was just from the break-in and normal wear. I have never had an oil analysis done.

I generally just change the oil every 3 to 6 months when it was sitting alot or when it starts stinking. I used to change it whenever I couldn't read the markings on the dipstick through it but since I do run Mobil 1 I have extended the drain intervals a little.

Being a carbureted car it dirties up the oil a lot quicker than the newer computer controlled, injected cars do. I'd never run a synthetic of any brand including Amsoil in an old carbureted engine with the drain intervals they recommend.
 
Those carb cars are hard on oil. I got rid of a carburetor van a few years back, I have its twin with the same engine with EFI, what a difference. I used MMO in the gas all the time with both of them, it helps keep the carb clean and stays in adjustment a lot longer. I always ran dino oil in a carb'd engine because I felt if it was dumping gas into the oil, I'd change it out every 3000 miles.

I had that carb'd van for well over 150,000 miles and that engine was spotless, used no oil and ran like a top. But EFI is light years ahead.
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500

The engine was rebuilt about 75,000 miles ago.


Ah. Then I wonder what the grey film was?

Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
It has never had leaded fuel in it and believe it or not the owners manual recommends unleaded. I was surprised myself when I found that out. I think those huge V-8's were under the EPA's gun long before the smaller engines were.


The EPA required that all engines sold in the US be CAPABLE of running on unleaded by 73, or maybe even 72. And the manufacturers were encouraged to recommend unleaded. Unleaded really wasn't mandatory until 75 when catcons were required. That same recommendation to use unleaded is in the owners manual of my '73 Satellite. It ran leaded fuel most of the time until circa 1982, though.

Originally Posted By: Trvlr500

Being a carbureted car it dirties up the oil a lot quicker than the newer computer controlled, injected cars do.


YMMV. I run synthetic in everything, and do 5000-7000 mile OCIs on the carbureted cars too. As long as you regularly get the oil hot enough to prevent fuel dilution, the extra soot load from running a little richer on average than an EFI system really doesn't hurt. If it did, diesels would be in big trouble! A well-tuned carb has precious little advantage over EFI at normal operating temps and highway cruising. Where EFI really gains the advantage is during the warm-up cycle and lots of load changes (city stop-and-go driving).
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum


YMMV. I run synthetic in everything, and do 5000-7000 mile OCIs on the carbureted cars too. As long as you regularly get the oil hot enough to prevent fuel dilution, the extra soot load from running a little richer on average than an EFI system really doesn't hurt. If it did, diesels would be in big trouble! A well-tuned carb has precious little advantage over EFI at normal operating temps and highway cruising. Where EFI really gains the advantage is during the warm-up cycle and lots of load changes (city stop-and-go driving).


The local kit car enthusiast that spend from $6,000.00 to around $28,000.00 or their cars convert from the fuel injection systems to carburetor as the first modification. They do away with, computer, sensors, and all such and replace them with new intake manifolds, carburetors, the largest possible headers, and the only electronics are an electronic ignition. Those that have automatic transmissions, very, very few, spend much on converting them to run without the input of the main computer. One version of a Mitsubishi Eclipse that ends up coating around $56,000.00, will walk all over a STOCK Corvette and will give a Porsche a run for the money. Must be nice.
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I have a 1986 Toyota with a 2 bbl carb and it runs great with 301,000 miles. I much prefer carbs but then I am an old geezer.
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Originally Posted By: AEHaas
This may help from a previous session of posts:

Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine, Schneider et al:
Let me begin by saying that every person interested in motor oil should go to SAE.org and purchase this article. (The paper was very detailed and I have tried to simplify the results. Also, I will need to report the results in several different postings so hang on please.) This research is made more relevant by actually using V-6 engines for wear testing - 1999 GM 3.4-L 60 degree block. And the radiotracer method of wear detection has been shown to be very accurate. They go on to say that cylinder wear and ring wear are perhaps the best areas to test oil and wear for engine longevity, particularly the rings.

Loads and RPMs varied during tests and for most tests the coolant and oils were artificially kept in the normal operating range for the engine. The coolant was not allowed to rise over 203 F and the oil was kept below 248 F. The basic test oil was a fully formulated 5W-30 quality oil. Comparisons were made between SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 oils, both mineral based and synthetic oils were tested. Mineral based SJ oils were tested with varying quantities of ZDDP. Fully identical mineral based oil additive packaged SJ oils of different viscosities were compared. Wear rates were also tested compared to oil temperature.

Wear rates were determined by measuring the radioisotopes in the oil. It was noted that the accumulation in the oil filter was minimal. This shows that metals in the oil are a good way to measure wear. (Note that with cavitation wear the metal particles would be large and caught in the filter as would the larger dirt particles.)

Results of comparing GF-2 to GF-3 lubricants:
In general, wear rates were high during the start up period (20 minutes) as previously noted (1). Then a steady state of less wear was reached at 2,000 RPM and low load. There was a big increase in wear rate when the load was at wide open throttle, WOT, at 2,000 RPM. A modest increase was noted if you kept the load at WOT and increased the RPM to 4,000.

Actual numbers:
Average wear (ug/h) for 650 RPM, low load = 50, for 2,000 RPM, low load = 79.
For 2,000 RPM at WOT = 516, for 4,000 RPM at WOT = 758.

They state that wear is independent of RPM but there is a high correlation between wear and engine load. (This seems odd at first. You double the RPM but the wear does not double as long as the load is the same. The wear rate per revolution actually decreases with RPM. The overall wear may increase but it is less per revolution.)

They state that there is little concern for ring wear under typical light load conditions. (Typical city and steady state U.S. highway conditions.) They conclude that there were no differences between the SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 mineral based oils in wear rates. This is the null hypothesis as the major difference between these oils is the newer lower volatility and increased oxidative stabililty between these oil classes.



Part 2:

Continuing with SJ GF-2 and SL GF-3 differences they show that there is no significant differences between the oils for the initial break-in wear of top compression rings. They state that bore wear differes from ring wear in that most wear occurs during initial break-in and with start up periods. Steady state wear is very low except when changing to high load conditions. But even here bore wear is less than ring wear rates. They reiterated that start up wear was most significant but there were no differences between the oil classes.

They compared the mineral based SJ oils for wear rates by varying the ZDDP levels. There were no differences between phosphorous levels of 0.10 and 0.05. The only other level tested was zero ZDDP where wear rates doubled. Another SAE paper showed no difference in wear as long as the level was greater than 0.03 (2). They further show that there is in fact minimal bore wear differences when no ZDDP is present. (Note that doubling the wear rate is still not too bad as the rate of wear was still relatively low.) They conclude that the newer GF-4 oils will have no negative impact on ring and bore wear rates even with the reduced ZDDP levels.

(I heard information that the ZDDP levels will be 0.05 in the GF-5 Oils.)

Oil age effects were tested by measuring wear after the oil was subjected to 16,000 miles of city driving. Although the oils thickened some, TAN increased and TBN decreased, there were no differences in wear rates from fresh oil. The test oils were mineral based SJ GF-2.


Part 3:

Fully formulated Synthetic SJ 0W-30, 5W-30 and SL 0W-30 oils were compared to SJ and SL 5W-30 mineral based oils for wear. There were no differences. (This is worth repeating - there were no differences in wear rates between mineral and synthetic based oils.)

Next are the effects of viscosity and oil temperature. Only ring wear was tested as they state it was most sensitive. They compared basic SJ GF-3 mineral oils. The additive packages were the same. The only difference was the viscosity of the base oils. The following grades resulted: 0W-10, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-40. The HTHS for these oils were 2.17, 2.83, 3.09 and 3.76.

There was no difference in wear rates. The oils were tested at all RPMs and Loads, no difference between oil grades were noted. All the oils had increasing wear rates as the load increased but all increased at the same rate across the board.

Most interesting to me was the way they tested wear at lower, start up, oil temperatures. In a previous study (1) they start with room temperature engines and oil showing the trend of decreasing wear as the engine heated up. In the current study they actually took a hot engine and chilled the coolant and oil from that of the normal operating temperature to a coolant temperature of around 80 F and oil temperature to 70 F. As the temperatures fell the wear increased. It reached the same rate of wear as the 4,000 RPM full load WOT. This was with the load at the minimum level. The fluids were then allowed to heat back up to normal operating temperatures and the wear rates normalized (decreased).

Wear at room temperature oil was 20 times higher than wear at normal operating temperatures. This finding is what closed the article. They stated that this will be the next focus of their upcoming research.

aehaas

(1) Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up.)

(2) Development of the Sequence III G Engine Oil Certification Test, Clark et al:
Engine tests were made more severe again. (Over the years the oil ratings have improved but this has always been despite the increase in testing severity. It was III ...D, E, F, and is now III G). The oil inlet temperature was decreased from 155 to 150 C. The test was 80 and is now 100 hours. There were 8 oil level adjustments allowed now there are 5. The inlet engine air temperature was raised from 27 to 35 C. The engine load was increased 25 percent.
Despite all this the current 0W-20 oils were still GF-4 compliant and showed minimal valve train wear characteristics as long as ZDP levels were higher than 0.03 percent. (The SM rated oils I have seen so far have levels of 0.08.)


so according to this the wear rates of the car on the track(mostly under wot conditions) will be same or higher as they are on the cold start up despite the oil being at or above operating temperature...

funny I did uoa after my track event and wear did not increase, I also saw many uoa's of people that track their cars as well and did not see any significant increase in wear?
 
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