PP 5W30; 4,100 miles; Toyota Sienna

[Roger]

Gosh, I thought high copper was suppose to go down once an engine finished breakin!

Blackstone reported: "Sodium is slowing washing out now that oil brand was changed. Surprisingly, copper increased! Other metals ok. Not sure what's up with copper. May be a poorly wearing bushing. Fuel dilution is common in city driving. Not a problem until > 2.0. Visc low but ok. Suggest you change oil due to copper."

Dealer has changed this oil every 5K since I bought it using Toyota brand oil. Switched to Pennzoil Platinum with last OC to see if a better quality oil improved copper. It did not.

I'll take the van in and have the dealer change oil at 29,500 and show him this report. See what he says. I'm concerned.

Code:
2007 Toyota Sienna van 3.5L V6

OIL Pennzoil Platninum 5W30

Filter: Toyota oem

MILES IN USE 4,100 4,500 4,750

MILES 29,100 24,500 14,750

SAMPLE TAKEN 4/26/07 12/19/08 6/8/08



ALUMINUM 3 4 4

CHROMIUM 0 0 0

IRON 6 6 13

COPPER 81 54 41

LEAD 3 0 1

TIN 4 1 0

MOLYBDENUM 60 114 126

NICKEL 0 0 0

MANGANESE 0 0 0

SILVER 0 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0 0

POTASSIUM 0 3 4

BORON 8 35 41

SILICON 9 9 20

SODIUM 53 248 271

CALCIUM 2139 1962 1708

MAGNESIUM 8 11 13

PHOSPHORUS 639 694 679

ZINC 764 853 869

BARIUM 0 0 0



INSOLUBLES 0.3 0.3 0.4

Fuel Trace
WATER 0 0 0

FLASHPOINT ºF 360 375 380

SUS VIS 210ºF 56.5 52.6 55.3

cSt @ 100ºC 9.21 8.07 8.87

 

[Johnny]

Run the PP in there at least one more time and see what happens.

 

[deven]

Do you have PP in the crankcase now? You should use PP for a couple more OCI's to find out if there really is a problem or is it just PP flusing out whats left over from the prior Oil changes.

 

[ADFD1]

I'm with the others here, run the PP a few more times and check. I doubt the dealer is really going to do anything based on your UOA's unless the engine is actually showing signs of a problem.

As a side note I would have them document your concerns so if something happens down the road your have a leg to stand on.

JMO
AD

 

[addyguy]

I'd be worried. Toyota's tend to break-in quickly, and even when breaking in, they don't throw a lot of metal out. The fact that these numbers are going UP as you get more mileage on the car tells me there's a problem, possibly a big one.

 

[FZ1]

Don't panic,man. Keep changing the oil but skip the uoa for 10k or so then check it you want to.

 

[The Critic]

It isn't uncommon for the Toyota 3.5 to show high copper. I wouldn't worry about it. The increase may just be a reaction from the recent change to PP?

 

[wannafbody]

Do another UOA and see if it trends up. If the car is under warranty you might want to get a service manager to document the high iron in case there is a issue down the road.

 

[INDYMAC]

I doubt that your dealer will be able to interpret this UOA for you. Since Cu has been high and going higher, and Pb along with Sn are starting to show up, it may be something as simple as the fuel you are using. I don't think it has anything to do with either oil you have been using. If this was my Toyota, I would send my next sample to Dyson Analysis for a professional interpretation/opinion. Also, send Terry your previous UOA's.

 

[Brett Miller]

I'd be surprised if you're Dealer even knew what a UOA was let alone do anything about it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Brett Miller
I'd be surprised if you're Dealer even knew what a UOA was let alone do anything about it.


I feel the same way. Most dealers that I worked for would provide lip service, unless the car was knocking or made obvious sounds of a problem. They will never open up an engine and check anything based on a customers UOA, unless the problem is evident. Best bet would be to see if a trend develops and be certain it is documented.

 

[wannafbody]

I meant copper

 

[Samilcar]

Code:
2008 Toyota Sienna 3.5L 2GR-FE



OIL PP5W20 MC50005W20 Factory

MILES ON OIL 5317 4287 770

MILES ON VAN 10374 5057 770

SAMPLE TAKEN 4/13/09 11/5/08 7/19/08



ALUMINUM 7 3 3

CHROMIUM 1 0 0

IRON 16 10 11

COPPER 35 100 92

LEAD 1 2 4

TIN 0 1 1

MOLYBDENUM 56 131 130

NICKEL 1 0 0

MANGANESE 1 1 4

SILVER 0 0 0

TITANIUM 0 0 0

POTASSIUM 1 2 7

BORON 27 21 63

SILICON 32 79 297

SODIUM 29 198 241

CALCIUM 2805 1725 1574

MAGNESIUM 33 9 5

PHOSPHORUS 686 617 604

ZINC 818 744 771

BARIUM 0 2 16



SUS Vis@210F 50.9 50.5 54.7

cSt Vis@100C 7.54 7.42 8.68

Flashpoint F 380 405 390

Fuel %
Antifreeze % 0.0 0.0 0.0

Water % 0.0 0.0 0.0

Insolubles % 0.2 0.3 TR

TBN 2.4 3.5


Roger, since I posted my last analysis in your other thread, I figured I'd post my most recent one in this thread. Copper is started to trend down in my van. I'm not sure why yours is not only staying high, but actually increasing a bit. It seems strange. As others have said, maybe the PP is cleaning out some deposits? I'd run one more 4,000 run with PP and see what kind of copper you get after that.

 

[FZ1]

Look,boys. If it ain't broke;the dealer is certainly not going to "fix" it!

 

[Roger]

Here's the rest of the story guys. I took a second sample before I sent this one to Blackstone ... just in case.

That one IS going to Terry, but it will be a week or two B4 I get any results. I'll reuse PP this weekend when the oil is changed to see if this was a reaction to a first use of PP as some of the posters suggest, but I doubt it.

A couple of months ago I rented a Sienna for business and was struck by how much quieter that engine idled. I took my van to the dealer and asked them to check it out. Predictably, mine sounded normal to them. Absent a mechanical failure, I doubt they will give much credence to a UOA. But I am going to ask them to note in my service record that I showed it to them. This is the dealer where I got the van, and they've done all the oil changes. They aren't dumb. They know when a customer is building a case before the warranty expires.

I'm so glad you posted your results Samilcar. It confirms my suspicions that my engine has swine flu symptoms. Thank you!

 

[Jaymus]

I'd give it one more shot with PP 5W-30 (if that's what your car calls for... because you can't argue with the dealer if you used a 'thicker oil'. But, give it one last try. If it still goes up... I think you could have a problem. It's just not 'normal', to say the least.

 

[smithph]

Thanks for posting.

I have a 07 Sienna also but have not done a UOA yet. I did put some Shell Rotella T Syn 5w-40 in at the last OCI to see if it would help with the cold startup engine noise. I must say it has helped more than the other oils I have tried, including PP. I think I will pull a sample and have a UOA done at the next OCI.

Again thanks for posting this as I was not aware that copper might be an issue with these 3.5lt engines.

 

[whitesands]

It says sample was taken 4/26/07 ???

 

[Samilcar]

Roger, when you bought your van did you get it with the tow prep package? The reason I ask is that I think that an engine oil cooler is installed as part of that package. That might be a source of copper. My van doesn't have one because I do no towing and didn't want to pay extra for that package.

 

[Roger]

4/26/07 is a typo. Sample was taken 4/26/09.

I have no tow package so am unsure if an oil cooler is installed. However I did pull the PCV for the 1st time ever and cleaned it. Wish I took a picture to show you all. It was bad. Bright silver metal housing on the PCV was pure black, and internals barely moved. I suspect that a 5K OCI with conventional oil in this engine is simply too long. Dealer had done free 5K oil changes since I bought the thing.

While I was at it I pulled the PCV on the wife's V6 Camry with 10K MORE miles than the Sienna. 1st time for that one too. Cleaner PCV and noiser than the van. I do the oil changes on that car myself every 3,500 miles.