CJ-4

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I have done several searches and have not found any discussion on the CJ-4 oils other than most people do not favor their performance. I have no choice but to run CJ-4 and would like to know, from the experts, what I should be looking for. I typically run the lower viscosity for better fuel economy.

Are all the CJ-4 engine oils the same? Is there any real difference between Mobile One, Rotella and Schaeffer?
 
People might complain about the different additive packages, but the oils seem to perform exceptionally well with ULSD.

All of the oils are not the same, but most are very good.
 
Thanks Ben, care to expand on what the difference might be and what a person should look for? with performance being the driving force not money ...
 
my uoa for Delo CJ4 is on the board. At OEM intervals it looked pretty much the same in terms of wear as compared to my earlier CI4+ UOA's, which are also on the board.
 
I support the use of CJ-4, especially when combined with ULSD fuel. The higher TBN of the previous oils is not nearly as important in the ULSD environment.

You're not really specific enough in your question of the "difference" in the oils. There certainly are differences between Mobil 1, Rotella, and Schaeffers. Base stocks and additives vary from a bit to a lot, depending upon which sub-species you're referring to.

They will all work fine in your engine, though.
 
I am not specific because I don’t know enough about it …

My goal, like many others, is to get the best fuel economy while minimizing wear. I am not afraid to spend money for better stuff if it is worth it.

What things should I be looking for in a CJ-4 oil and which oils have these qualities?

The standard choices are; Mobile, Chevron, and Rotella. The alternatives are Schaeffer, Castrol, and Amsoil. Am I missing any that I should be considering?

... tim
 
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Well, probably the most important things you can consider are the following:

Intended OCI length (are you AR about OCIs, or can you fight off the urge to change often?)
Warranty considerations (are you bound by OEM criteria for coverage?)
Price point of products (more $ can, but does not always, mean "better")
Availability of products (do you need it NOW, or are you willing to have it shipped?)

In general, in most nearly all diesel applications, there is a multitude of success with "dino" products such as the big three (Delo, Delvac, Rotella). Note that these are just brand name product lines; you must be specific in what product you're referring to. For example, all three have both "dino" and "synthetic" oil within those lines. Even the "synthetics" are of different base groups.

"Synthetics" in their many forms offer greater ability to extend the OCI; some significantly. Amsoil for one now offers some of their products that have warranty guarantees for 3x the OEM OCI! That's pretty significant. It is not uncommon for the Dmax engines to go 10k miles with good UOAs on regular dino oil, and using the OLM. So conceivably, you could run the Amsoil for 30k? I'm not sure I'd do that, and certainly the practice would necessitate UOAs along the way, but my point is that there are possibilities for greatly extended OCIs, thereby becoming a fiscal savings tool.

"Synthetics" also give some great advantage in extreme temperature environments. But I caution you to fully understand what "extreme" means. I mean E-X-T-R-E-M-E cold (below -30 degF). Or, like Africa-desert-hot just before boiling over the coolant due to a failed water pump. Short of those examples, synthetics don't hold much advantage over conventional lubes.

OTOH, if you're anal-retentive about changing oil every 5k miles, regardless of what's in the crankcase, then conventional "dino" HDEO oil will do extremely well. There is no logic whatsoever to buying a premium PAO oil for $28/gallon, and then dumping it at 5k or 7k miles. You can go out and find some really good dino oils on sale and run them for that type mileage. For example, it's been very easy over the last sevearl months to find Delvac 1300 for $7/gallon with the rebate. Wally World just had Tection Extra (Castrol dino HDEO) on sale for $5/gallon! So if you're only going to run 5k miles, or even more in some applications, do you really get 4x the "protection" in wear metal reduction for 4x the price increase? There is resounding evidence to show that is not the case; often premium oils are not in use long enough to warrant the added expense.

You can likely get an increase in fuel economy by running a thinner HDEO. I personally run Rotella 10w-30 in my Dmax. I've had no issues so far at all. Some people fear a thinner oil in diesels, but I believe they are the dirty little secret that few are willing to experiment with. I for one am not afraid at all. Still - the fuel savings is minimal and hard to quantify. I just do it to throw the nay-sayers a curve ball, and prove that thinner HDEOs are just as capable in UOA performance.

Part of the reason I first questioned you is because you mentioned Mobil One (Mobil 1), Rotella, and Schaeffers. Well, to me, Mobil 1 is a general product line indicating their "synthetic" products. It refers to their PCMO, HDEO, and even gear lube products. Perhaps you meant Mobil Delvac 1, their PAO based engine oil. Good stuff. (AKA Mobil Turbo Diesel Truck TDT). But then you mentioned "Rotella". That, too, is a product line. But around here it generally means the conventional "dino" oil. If you were referring to the "synthetic" Rotella, then that would be "RTS" - also good stuff; a group III with a lot of VII. Then you mention "Schaeffers"; they have both semi-syn products (the 7000 series) and full synthetic products (the 9000 series). That is why I stated you need to be more specific in talking about these products. It's hard to show you the pros/cons when we really have a difficult time knowning just which products you're comparing. I would have interpreted your first post as comparing a PAO ("Mobil One") to a conventional ("Rotella"); not really a fair comparison because they are targeted at different marketing levels, and have great price disparity to show it!

You mentioned the "B" word ("better"); I hate that word because it is so mis-used and mis-understood here on BITOG. Well, "better" means different things to different people. You must decide what "better" means to you. Is it all about wear protetion? Is it about value? Is it about ease of service? And so on. So many different things play into each individual's perception of "better". I personally choose a set of criteria, then rank order them by priority, and that helps me decide what's "best" for me. But that may not be "best" for you.

We don't even know what vehicle/engine you're running. I presume it's a new-generation on-road vehicle, because you mentioned that you're bound to CJ-4. Well, CJ-4 oils used in conjuction with ULSD fuel have been showing very good UOAs. They don't fare quite as well with LSD, but that's understandable due to the sulphur issue. You mentioned a preference for thinner oils. OK, here goes ... for a "shoot from the hip SWAG", I'll go out on a limb and say for anything short of 7.5k mile OCIs, you could run a dino HDEO 10w-30 in the Delo, Delvac, or Rotella products. They are a bit harder to find over the 15w-40 grade. But they're out there; you just have to look, or maybe order. If that's not your cup of tea, then by all means, choose something different. After all, it's about you being comfortable with your choice, not mine. There are guys and gals out there running Amsoil for 5k mile OCIs; foolish in my opinion. But, and I don't say this to be glib, it's not about me, it's about you, and what you want.

Unfortunately, people often confuse "wants" and "needs" ... Choose wisely.
 
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Excellent! If I would have known that I would receive such a thoughtful reply, I would have been more specific to begin with. OTH, it’s hard to judge what’s needed until the questions are asked.

The engine is the 2010 DD15 by Detroit. The vehicle is a class 8 truck (FL Cascadia) with a sleeper stretched to 150”. The application is long haul 48 states. We average 2800 miles per week but can easily do 5000 per week from time-to-time. The vehicle is on the assembly line at this moment.

The factory recommended OCI is 50,000 miles for this engine in a line haul operation. We will add an oil bypass filtration system to the engine. We are looking at the OPS1 system. We will take an oil sample and change the bypass filter every 15k miles. We will stay with the factory OCI until we feel it can be extended (based on UOA).

Availability of a product is a factor for us. Our home base is in Oregon and we rent a storage unit in Missouri and we can store product in either location. However, we follow the money loads and we seldom find ourselves at either of these locations at the appropriate time. At this point we need to consider a product from each of these groups.

In the past we have used Schaeffer 7000 15w 30 synthetic blend. It performed well and it might be worth the extra work but I would like to review my options again. I am also a bit leery of bulk oils and like my oil in the original factory containers.

Another factor could be the fuel that we use. Since our travels takes us to where the money is (in theory), our fuel plan is based upon cost and route miles. The truck will not have a steady diet of a consistent fuel composition. We are considering an additive to help with the quality of the fuel.

Fuel savings from the use of lower viscosity oils can be significant if you consider the miles we put on in a year (100K+). The rule of thumb is $1000 per year for every .1 you knock off your MPG. I immediately think of full synthetic and 0w ?? but that just shows my ignorance.

“My recommendation would be to go with the lowest viscosity lubricant possible, consistent with your warranty, and to select packages with a Moly additive.”

This above is a recommendation from a manager in the Tribology Section of the Energy Systems Division of a large and well known laboratory. I only add this as a reference for my criteria in finding the oil that meets my needs.

I think that I can safely state that I will never become an expert in this area. However, I do know that the information that I am after exists in the minds of the people who frequent these forums. I would be extremely grateful for the time spent in offering an opinion of what you might do in my situation from choice of oil, bypass filtration, standard filters to oil change interval …

… tim
 
OK, first off, let me state that I'm not a diesel engine operator and never have been. But since CJ-4 has been suggested, I thought I'd offer another option that might fit your requirements/needs. It's called Monolec Ultrablend Engine Oil (LE8130) that is manufactured by Lubrication Engineers, Inc. It's API Service CJ-4/SM SAE10W-30. The last I heard from an LE rep was that it is 30% grp II+ and 70% grp IV (PAO). It's expensive at $140/case (24 qts), but I really like their products. I drive by their warehouse in Wichita, KS every year, so I try to have an order ready when I drive by to avoid shipping charges.

Here is what it states on the back label:

"No other brand of petroleum lubricating oil whatsoever, regardless of price, will be found superior in condition to Monolec Engine Oil at the end of any given period of use."
 
I'll also admit that OTR stuff is not my baliwick; I don't run long haul stuff.

However, sounds like you've done some of your due-dilligence and homework already.

For situations such as yours, you might consider a dino HDEO with a premium bypass filtration system. I personally think that this type set-up has a great opportunity for savings in oil (dino over synthetic), but still having great longevity with the bypass system.

In theory, oils never wear out; they get contaminated and the additive package becomes overwhelmed. If you use bypass, then why would a "synthetic" last much if any longer than a "dino", especially when you'll still have to top-off the oil at filter change time? My logic is thus: if the bypass filter is keeping the contamination down, then why would the viscosity or additive packages be that much "better" with a synthetic, over a "dino"? This is at least one option worth considering. I'm not saying it's a "sure thing guaranteed for success", but logically, it makes for some interesting considerations. Dino HDEO oil is very inexpensive, compared to some of the "synthetic" alternatives.

Being on the road all the time, the real goal is to balance maintenance costs with downtime costs. Can you justify running a dino HDEO instead of a synthetic? I dont' know. Only experimentation and UOAs and trucking logs will prove or disprove this theory. If using bypass/synthetics gives you 1.5x more lubricant life over bypass/dino, but it costs 3x as much, does the downtime reduction offset the higher cost of the fluid? Or, is there enough stagnant time in your schedule that downtime is not really an issue, and the 3x cost can't be justifed versus more dino OCIs?

It's always been a numbers game in heavy trucking. For personal use vehicles, it's almost never pays off to use synthetic/bypass, because people can't keep their fingers off the drain plug. Many people dump perfectly good synthetic fluids WAY before their time. But they justify the act with the mentality of "longevity"; they somehow believe that their vehicle will last "longer". The reality is that todays vehicles will likely run WAY past the original owners desire to have it, just running dino fluids and conventional filtration.

All food for thought.
 
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I do run OTR. I have an '06 Cummins ISX but have been keeping an eye on the new DD15. Their OEM recommended change interval should be looked at cautiously. I would run oil samples about every 15,000 until you see how your particular oil choice is holding up. Will also give you a heads up about anything going wrong in the engine. Either way, at those OEM recommended intervals, I would go with a good synthetic that you can readily obtain. I am home regularly so I use a brand that I can only get shipped to me direct. If you are relying on doing your services on the road and not near home, then stick with the name brand that you can readily obtain on the road. That pretty much leaves you with Rotella or Mobil Delvac as your best choices.
 
I agree, from a preventative maintenance point of view, bypass filtration pretty much eliminates the need to run synthetic in an effort to extend the OCI for all the reasons you mention. Extending the OCI reduces oil consumption (which is good all the way around) and provides a good return on your investment (ROI). Bypass filtration just might be the best investment on the preventative maintenance side of things.

Downtime is not a problem with us and we normally have plenty of time to attend to such things. The problem is being at the right place at the right time when it comes time to change the oil. We either change the oil when the opportunity presents it’s self (before OCI) or we switch to oil that is readily available. Service should not be a factor in our routes or the loads that we take but the lure of the specialized oils have a firm grip on me.

What about these special blends that have different base and additive packages? I would really like to hear the theory about why one should be considered over the other. Is this information compiled and summarized somewhere that I could read on my own? In layman’s terms that is.

On the performance side of things: We run, on average, 120,000 miles a year. If we average 6 mpg we will use 20,000 gallons of fuel a year. At $3.00 a gallon our fuel expense for the year is $60,000. If running synthetic at a lower viscosity, or any other change, will increase our mpg to 6.1 then our fuel expense would be $59,016 which is almost $1,000 in savings. Reducing fuel consumption is a very big part of the game especially when the fuel prices are high. This same example with prices at $4.50 per gallon would be $1,475 ($90,000-88,525) in savings.
 
I suspect you might be right ...

... tim

PS What oil are you using?
 
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My thoughts exactly! Every little bit helps. I average 145,000 miles a year in my operation and every little tenth mpg increase makes a whopper difference in the net profits. I am running bypass along with running Schaeffer oil. I can effectively triple my OCI over the OEM recommendation. With extended drains, you should be able to plan your runs to coincide with being by the house to use a brand that is not readily available at the typical oil change sites like Speedco or the truck stop chains. Use those places to get your grease jobs and underbody inspections and then plan your downtime at home for an oil change. You can change out a bypass filter like the OPS-1 or the FS-2500 yourself on the go in about 15 minutes with little hassle. I have done it right at a customer's location while waiting for my pickup appointment time. Even took my oil samples on the road and sent them in.

Regarding the Schaeffer brand, they make a Series 9000 that would really fit well with what you are running. I am using the Series 7000 in my ISX, but am using the 9000 in some other applications. Both are solid performers and can be had far cheaper than the off the shelf synthetics or "specialty" oils. The 9000 is a Group IV and Group III full synthetic. The 7000 is a Group III and Group II blend. Both are CJ-4 which is what you require. I can get the 9000 series delivered to my door free of charge for about $8-$10 LESS than Delvac 1 at Wally World and about $14 a gallon cheaper than what the T/A truck stop wants. And the 9000 compares quite favorably to the high end synthetics like Delvac, Amsoil, or Royal Purple. The Series 7000 is a little cheaper (being a blend), but has a very good track record in performance. Check out the Schaeffer site for specs and get ahold of Mark, the Schaeffer sponsor on this site. He can help you decide if Schaeffer is a product you can use.

Synthetics with bypass will pay for themselves in a Class 8 operation. With $15,000 for a out of frame rebuild or $25,000 for a new motor, and synthetics really coming into their own now a days, it just plain makes sense to use them. But the real cost advantage is using a bypass oil filter to really extend those drains. The money you save is extended drains, fuel savings, and extreme temperature variation performance will be worth it. It may not be a monster amount of green you will save in the long run, but then, every little bit helps. The typical name brand dino oils are darn good, but you will give yourself a little edge by going the synthetic route, and having something like Schaeffer delivered to your door at a comparable price to the dino oil pricing on the road, it is just good sense.

Good Luck!
 
Schaeffers 9000,137nd,the correct Schaeffer gear and transmission oil and you will save 3 to 7% in fuel economy.
 
Having used Schaeffer products in the past, they were my first choice for the new truck. I wanted a lower viscosity so I investigated their 9000 CJ-4 offering and discovered that it was not API certified. Next, I went to the Road Ranger web site and downloaded the approved lubricants and Schaeffer does not have one. Under the column with a title of Product it says “Roadranger SAE 50” instead of listing their product that meets the Roadranger “PS-164 R7” spec. Apparently, Schaeffer supplies product but the blending is done by someone else.

I have the DD15, a Roadranger transmission and a Arvin Meritor rear end. What are the Schaeffer oils that will yield 3-7% increase in fuel economy over the other brands? What are the distinguishing characteristics? Thanks for your help …

… tim
 
I appreciate all the time and effort that was put into this thread. I learned a great deal and I am very appreciative. The question that really didn’t get answered is what the distinguishing differences between the oils are.

Let’s just take the three that were mentioned here; Schaeffer’s 9000 5w40, Mobile 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 and Shell Rotella T 5w 40. What are the differences (base and package)? Is one really better than the other in the reduction of friction and longevity?

I am a reader and if there has already been discussion on this please point me in the right direction …

… tim
 
Timenright,

Your questions are many. Past this post please pm,call or email any additional questions you may have.
Api has yet to develop a test for GIII and pao blend.
All oils come down to three things. Base oil. Additives, and Blending.
Specifically with Schaeffer’s we believe we use the finest GII plus , GIII (from a single base stock), the finest pao for base stocks.
Additives. We basically invented moly in oils. We use the highest grades with the correct compensations of moly,calcium and magnesium detergency packages, and penetro, our patented friction modifier.

As previously stated it is the combination of “schaefferizing” your vehicle from front to rear that will get you the 3-7% fuel economy gain.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/293 75W90.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/214S.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/239S.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/167.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/137ND.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/740-741.pdf
http://www.schaefferoil.com/datapdf/9000.pdf
 
SalesRep,

I think the question needs to be answered in the forums. Many times I have followed a thread looking for the answer only to discover it lies somewhere in a PM.

You have the specs for my truck and are aware of the warranty issues. What oils would you use to “Schaefferize” our truck and still meet the extended use warranty? I want to stay with Schaeffer products and have not found a way. Thanks for your help …

… tim
 
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Originally Posted By: Arkapigdiesel
Originally Posted By: Johnny
Don't get the Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 confused with Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40. Two completely different oils. For your application you would want the Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40.

I will let the rest of the congregation voice their opinions on which is better.

Johnny, I'm scratching my head on that one. In the past (when CI-4+ was the latest formulation), the two oils were the same. There was even a bulletin on the Mobil One website stating as such.

Are you inferring that the current CJ-4 Turbo Diesel Truck formulation and Delvac 1 ESP CJ-4 aren't the same?


That's what I'm saying and I believe Mobil has stated the same since going to CJ-4


The answer lies here
 
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