Radial Pull

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Lets talk about this phenomina known as radial pull.
I just had a brand new set of tires (one of the tires now has
a radial pull and the tire shop is replacing it free of charge.

My max PSI on these is 44, and I run them at 37-38 so that I don't have to cotinually mess with rechecking the air pressure with every fluctuation in temperature change. Does running a tire higher in PSI make a radial pull more likley to occurr?
 
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Well that's what I would think. I read on the web that radial pull occurres when the tire is being produced, during the curing phase of the rubber and all its components.

I just wondered if hitting a pothole with higher air pressure can cause it to happen.
 
In tires, pull is caused by a tire property called "conicity" - root word "cone" - and like a cone, the tire pulls slightly to one side or the other. Conicity is the result of the centeredness of the belts. Conicity has both a direction and magnitude, and the dimension is pounds force.

Decreasing the deflection - either by increasing the inflation pressure or using a lighter load - results in less conicity. Needless to say, on a vehicle, lightening the load isn't practical, so changing the inflation pressure is the only thing that can be varied.

But pull is caused by the vector difference between the 2 tires - AND the sensitivity of the vehicle.

Perhaps an example would help clarify this:

Let's assume you have a vehicle that is sensitive to anything larger than 12 and you have a pair of tires - +7 and -6. The vector difference is 13 - and that would cause a slight pull.

Swap the tires left to right and the magnitude of the pull is the same, but the direction is towards the other side.

Replace either tire with something smaller - say a 4 (either plus or minus) - and the vector difference is also smaller - and the result is no pull.

Take both the +7 and -6 and put that on a vehicle that is sensitive to anything larger than a 15 and this also results in no pull.

So it's not that one particular tire is bad, it's that the pair are not matched AND exceeds the sensitivity of the vehicle.

Going back to the original +7 and -6 pair of tires: If you take the -6 tire and mount it inside out (If this was a white sidewall with the white side normally mounted out, that would be WSW in), the conicity for that particular tire is the same except that it is pointed the other direction - and no pull.

This phenomenon seems to be strictly confined to the front axle. I've never heard of this occuring on the rear axle, so moving the front tires to the rear may eliminate the pull - with the unfortunate result that a rotation would result in a pull.

Vehicle manufacturers will usually specify a maximum value for conicity and commonly request that a shipment of tires all have the same direction - with the theory that the first (and last) set of tires from a shipment won't get mixed with the previous (or next) shipment.

In cases where they know their vehicle is more sensitive than normal, they may request "quad sorting" within a shipment - that is a given shipment is not only all positive (or all negative), but also all high (or all low).

But Mercedes specifies that ALL their tires have the same direction, so the tires are either purposefully built with the belts slightly off center - OR - the tires are identical on both sides and the side to be mounted out is indicated by an almost invisible dot.

Unfortunately, it is possible for a misalignment condition to cause a wear pattern that changes the conicity of a tire - and a tire that had none before could develop high values of conicity.

You might think that a tire with a large value of conicity would wear towards one side or the other, but I have never been able to detect any abnormal wear patterns that stem from conicity. I suspect that is because toe has a much larger effect on wear, coupled with the fact that conicity values are pretty small compared to the forces generated by even a small amount of toe in.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
In tires, pull is caused by a tire property called "conicity" - root word "cone" - and like a cone, the tire pulls slightly to one side or the other. Conicity is the result of the centeredness of the belts. Conicity has both a direction and magnitude, and the dimension is pounds force.

Decreasing the deflection - either by increasing the inflation pressure or using a lighter load - results in less conicity. Needless to say, on a vehicle, lightening the load isn't practical, so changing the inflation pressure is the only thing that can be varied.

But pull is caused by the vector difference between the 2 tires - AND the sensitivity of the vehicle.

Perhaps an example would help clarify this:

Let's assume you have a vehicle that is sensitive to anything larger than 12 and you have a pair of tires - +7 and -6. The vector difference is 13 - and that would cause a slight pull.

Swap the tires left to right and the magnitude of the pull is the same, but the direction is towards the other side.

Replace either tire with something smaller - say a 4 (either plus or minus) - and the vector difference is also smaller - and the result is no pull.

Take both the +7 and -6 and put that on a vehicle that is sensitive to anything larger than a 15 and this also results in no pull.

So it's not that one particular tire is bad, it's that the pair are not matched AND exceeds the sensitivity of the vehicle.

Going back to the original +7 and -6 pair of tires: If you take the -6 tire and mount it inside out (If this was a white sidewall with the white side normally mounted out, that would be WSW in), the conicity for that particular tire is the same except that it is pointed the other direction - and no pull.

This phenomenon seems to be strictly confined to the front axle. I've never heard of this occuring on the rear axle, so moving the front tires to the rear may eliminate the pull - with the unfortunate result that a rotation would result in a pull.

Vehicle manufacturers will usually specify a maximum value for conicity and commonly request that a shipment of tires all have the same direction - with the theory that the first (and last) set of tires from a shipment won't get mixed with the previous (or next) shipment.

In cases where they know their vehicle is more sensitive than normal, they may request "quad sorting" within a shipment - that is a given shipment is not only all positive (or all negative), but also all high (or all low).

But Mercedes specifies that ALL their tires have the same direction, so the tires are either purposefully built with the belts slightly off center - OR - the tires are identical on both sides and the side to be mounted out is indicated by an almost invisible dot.

Unfortunately, it is possible for a misalignment condition to cause a wear pattern that changes the conicity of a tire - and a tire that had none before could develop high values of conicity.

You might think that a tire with a large value of conicity would wear towards one side or the other, but I have never been able to detect any abnormal wear patterns that stem from conicity. I suspect that is because toe has a much larger effect on wear, coupled with the fact that conicity values are pretty small compared to the forces generated by even a small amount of toe in.


AAAHHH, AAHHH, MY HEAD HURTS!!!
 
" identical on both sides and the side to be mounted out is indicated by an almost invisible dot."

Are those the stupid dime size colored dots on the side of tires?

Or do you know what those are? Just curious...
 
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Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Capri,

Just wondering what tire manufacturer you work for ?


Sorry, but my employer has been giving me mixed signals about all the internet posting I've been doing. I can't figure out if they are neutral or opposed (it somewhat depends on who I am talking to). Nevertheless, you've heard of the company and I would hope it doesn't matter. I've stayed completely away from commenting about the various brands being discussed for the very reason and I hope no one cares that I watch these discussion woth more that just interest.

Originally Posted By: bepperb
" identical on both sides and the side to be mounted out is indicated by an almost invisible dot."

Are those the stupid dime size colored dots on the side of tires?

Or do you know what those are? Just curious...


Well ..... ah ..... not exactly.

The dots that Mercedes specifies about about ¼" in diameter. I think they are white, but they are pretty tiny and hard to see unless you are looking for them.

BUT

There are other dots - and some are dime sized - and some indicate the unifomity high point. Here's a write on that subject:

http://www.geocities.com/barrystiretech/unifandbal.html
 
Originally Posted By: bepperb

Are those the stupid dime size colored dots on the side of tires?

Or do you know what those are? Just curious...


The red dot indicates the high spot on the tire and the yellow dot indicates the lightest part of the tire.
 
Originally Posted By: Canawler

The red dot indicates the high spot on the tire and the yellow dot indicates the lightest part of the tire.


Sorry, but while this might be true for one tire manufacturer, I can state with absolute certainty that this is NOT true across the board.

BTW, Ford wants a green elongated sticker for the high point, and Toyota wants a red dot, BMW wants a white dot, GM doesn't use them at all.

Balance marks? - well sometimes our company uses wax dots and they are color coded - I forget what the code is, but we use blue, green, yellow, and red and all 4 if it fails.

So - there is nothing you can say about dots on tires that is 100% true for every tire manufacturer. In fact, you can't even state that there will be dots on tires.
 
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My Honda has red dots opposite the valve stem holes. My toyota has them lined up with the stem holes.

Very interesting, but obviously there is no industry standard for these dots.

But, one more thing to look at as I walk across the parking lot to work...
 
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