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#1420161 - 03/30/09 08:02 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
"85lb - 23lb = 62lb" and then “85lb - <23lb PSID= >62 PSI” ... can NOT happen.


Oh, really? I'm sorry ..but here's where you're very mistaken ..but let us allow you to go FULL DEPTH into your misconceptions to, perhaps, have you abandon your dogma as truth ..at least in all circumstances.


Don’t be so certain ... too much confidence can be seriously embarrassing at times. I really wish someone else with some fluid dynamics education would step into this discussion for a 3rd party viewpoint, as this round ‘n round bullsheet if getting very old at this point. I’ve tried to describe what’s going on in every way imaginable to no avail.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

 Quote:
Listen carefully ...it can NOT happen because if the filter’s PSID goes down so will the engine’s oil pressure by a relative factor associated by its relative resistance to flow. The engine oil pressure can NEVER go up while the oil filter PSID goes down –- or vica versa.


ANNNK!!!! Wrong.

Relative resistance is ONLY apparent when the circuit is a series circuit. You've not figured the variable resistor that is in parallel, the relief.


You’re missing something key here. The filter + engine is ALWAYS a series circuit regardless if the pump is in relief mode or not, so there is ALWAYS AN APPARENT RELATIVE RESISTANCE for both the filter and engine at all times ... you just said so above. Look at what’s going on just downstream of the pressure relief valve ... it’s ALWAYS a serial flow circuit with the same exact oil flow volume going through both the filter and engine at any point in time.

The filter/engine circuit really could care less what the relief valve is doing. The only thing the oil pump relief valve is designed for is to ensure that a pre-determined maximum oil pressure does not get applied to the filter/engine (series) circuit. It simply shunts a portion of the oil flow to the sump to control applied pressure to the filter/engine circuit. The flow volume that goes through the filer/engine circuit (regardless if the pump is in relief or not) is solely determined by the oil pressure, oil viscosity AND the relative resistance factor of BOTH the filter and engine.

Assume the oil viscosity is always constant, and that the engine RPM is changed slowly from idle to 7000 RPM redline. Obviously, the pump’s output pressure is caused by the near linear volume output due engine RPM – a trait of a positive displacement pump. The oil pump under these conditions goes into its 85 psi relief mode at 5500 RPM. Assume a pretty restrictive oil filter is being used. This would then be the general trend of what’s going on in the oil system with these conditions.

Key to number layout:
RPM – Pump Out P (psi) – Filter PSID (psi) – Engine Oil P (psi)

1000 – 40 – 2 - 38
2000 – 50 – 4 - 46
3000 – 60 – 6 - 54
4000 – 70 – 8 - 62
5000 – 80 – 10 – 70
5500 – 85 – 11 - 74
6000 – 85 – 11 - 74
6500 – 85 – 11 - 74
7000 – 85 – 11 – 74

As you can see ... BOTH the filter’s PSID and engine’s oil pressure went up in unison based on their relative resistance to the oil flow. Once the pump’s relief valve is hit at 5500 PRM, then the system is stable from that point and up since the flow volume actually going to the filter/engine serial circuit is constant when in pump relief. Maybe that is that part you are hosed up on? Gary – once the pump hits relief mode, the flow volume is constant going into the filter/engine (assuming the relief valve is designed right). This is important to realize.

Note that if this particular oil filter had a bypass valve set to 8 psi, that it would have been in bypass mode around 4000 RPM.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Once closed, the filter is next to nothing in apparent resistance. When open, the filter, and the relief are variable (apparent) resistors.


Nope ... when the pump’s relief valve is closed it doesn’t mean there is not significant flow still going to the series filter/engine flow path ... the example above shows that. Again, BOTH must receive the SAME flow volume, so if there is high flow in the engine, there is also the same high flow in the filter. Flow volume, viscosity and relative flow resistance of a device all determine the pressure drop (PSID) across that device. If the flow goes down (with constant viscosity), then the filter’s PSID AND the engine’s oil pressure will both go down accordingly.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The combined pressure drop across the filter and the engine is what the relief drops (supply - in this case, 85lb). Now in that subset, the engine will drop what it does based on the flow through it. The filter MUST SEE the difference. It sees supply pressure above it ..and the pressure drop of the engine below it. The difference is the PSID.


See above example.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
As the throughput of the oil biases more to the engine, the supply will remain 85lb and the engine will drop more (this is where my term "develop" works much better). The PSID will start to erode.


How can “the throughput of the oil biases more to the engine” happen if the SAME FLOW is always going through both the filter and engine in the series flow path?

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
When more flow passes through the filter to the engine, the drop across the engine MUST INCREASE. Since we're slammed up against the supply (again, 85lb) the filter will decrease its "apparent" resistance to satisfy the equation.


See example above. When the supply pressure is slammed up against the 85 psi relief setting, then the filter AND engine will show their largest pressure drops. The filter can not decrease it’s PSID at max flow conditions. The pressure drops are CONSTANT from the point of pressure relief and above (5500 PRM and above in the example). That’s how it really works.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This is the big thing you totally miss since you've never seen it with your own eyes. You're IGNORANT of this interrelationship between relief flow and apparent PSID across the filter. Without relief flow, there is virtually NO PSID across the filter.

Go test it for yourself and you'll see.

I HAVE. You don't know what you're talking about under these conditions.


Your statement above in red = not true. At one time, certain people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth because that’s what their senses of the conditions “told them”. I’m thinking the same phenomenon has occurred in your testing, and has led you to construct some invalid flow models in your head. It can happen to anyone I guess if they don’t have all the facts at hand.
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#1420191 - 03/30/09 08:24 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
I'll skip over your self created stuff. It may indeed exist at some point in some situation. Filter resistance is negligible for the vast majority of throughput. It would obviously be a factor at mega volumes.

 Quote:
How can “the throughput of the oil biases more to the engine” happen if the SAME FLOW is always going through both the filter and engine in the series flow path?


Dood. You've got 100% flow out of a pump. A percentage of that ISN'T GOING THROUGH THE FILTER OR ENGINE.

IT EXISTS, AT WHATEVER FLOW RATE THAT IS, AT OR ABOVE THE RELIEF LIMIT (AT the limit so that this "MAY" get through to you).

Let's say that 50% of the 100% is shunted/relieved (for example)

That means that 80% of the flow is going through the filter and the engine.

So, 50% of the flow with 100% of the pressure applied. What pressure is the engine going to see?

A:50% of what it would if it was receiving 100% of the flow. No denying that ...DOOD.

So, if you take our 85lb max ..and take 50% of that, we would have 42.5 across the engine ..and 42.5 across the filter.

BUT WAIT, we have a filter bypass that doesn't allow this to occur. It's maxed @ 23lb..so the engine MUST SEE

85-23=62 regardless of what the filter would offer in resistance if no bypass valve existed.

That's why it is there.

As the flow is more and more biased to the filter/engine, that pressure differential MUST retreat.

If you can't admit that MORE FLOW through the engine will drop more pressure ..then you've just spit in Ballony's eye.

85
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#1420314 - 03/30/09 10:51 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
The main problem is that you view the filter as a static resistance. If you push enough volume through it, then, sure, it will show some increased PSID (non-relief).

This is NOTHING compared to what a filter can present in terms of resistance to flow when you don't have the downstream (back pressure) as a choke. This back pressure is much more in a non-relief state.

A filter in a normal pressure applied (non-positive displacement) scenario is a virtual brick wall to flow.

This is why it's so critical for you to understand the dynamics of what occur when the oil pump goes into relief. It "unmasks" the restrictive properties of the media that are virtually transparent when you're out of relief. Out of relief, the engine trumps it BIG TIME.


..and I've tried every way that I can think of to get your light bulb to glow too, pal. You've not gleaned one insight into the physical events as they occur ..and are redundantly reciting properties that don't apply in this situation.


Again, where are your images of above and below filter readings? Where are your testing devices ..your practical applications of your theories? They don't exist if I read my SuperBusa's right

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#1420594 - 03/31/09 09:23 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
Okay ..let's give it another try here.

Let's say we EXCEED the relief level by increasing the engine speed.

Now YOU ASSERT that the filter MUST conform to Ballony's Laws.

We have our normal 85lb relief limit ..but the visc is WAY TOO HIGH for the relief port to handle the volume that the pump puts out ..and maintain 85lb. This happens in the Euro-Alloy ..it happens with the Subbies with gauges.

DO YOU DOUBT THIS ..AND REQUIRE MULTIPLE TESTIMONIALS, OR WILL YOU ADMIT THIS IS A "TRUTH" in SOME circumstances???


So:

Let's just say that it can maintain 85lb AT IDLE. Now the driver applies the gas pedal and the volume INCREASES. According to you and Ballony, the PSID MUST INCREASE.

..but it can't ..the bypass valve prevents this alleged immutable law of fluid dynamics from taking place.

In the case of our Subbie owners, it means that we now have:

100psi - 23lb(filter)= 77psi across the engine.

Gee, the filter is (relatively) "compressed" in PSID. That is, it's % of total pressure system drop ACROSS THE FILTER is REDUCED.

It now represents 23% of total system pressure drop ..instead of 27% .... AMAZING

How can this be according to you and your beloved Ballony?

As we advance the volume (and pressure) the floor continues to shave the difference between it and the ceiling ..and the PSID across the filter REMAINS THE SAME.

Now slide that view back and forth (85lb in relief @ 23PSID and 100psi @ 23PSID) watching the "apparent" effects and what causes them.

Now you massage your view to relief events that DO NOT MAINTAIN THE 23PSID state ..YET STILL HAVE AN ATTENUATED PRESSURE LEVEL ..and what do you get?

You get PSID across the filter (when in relief) being a byproduct of total flow minus relief flow ..as seen by the engine in isolation. The engine has no reactive component to it. It's a linear resistive element (for the most part - I'm sure someone could pick some nits out of their butt). I think you'll have a very hard time reasoning your way around that. It drops whatever it does based on the flow it sees. The filter, however, sees supply pressure. The difference is the PSID.

Your model with massive rpms and volumes is a way "also ran" aspect to it in 99&44/100 % of the rolling population on the planet..and the figures are not accurate in observations that I've performed ..and you have not.
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#1421207 - 03/31/09 07:35 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
I've only responded to the first of your three latest posts ... dude, you're goin' nuts here. If I find time, I'll address some of your last two posts. This is getting really time consuming, and frankly my time could be spent on better things.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
How can “the throughput of the oil biases more to the engine” happen if the SAME FLOW is always going through both the filter and engine in the series flow path?


Dood. You've got 100% flow out of a pump. A percentage of that ISN'T GOING THROUGH THE FILTER OR ENGINE.

IT EXISTS, AT WHATEVER FLOW RATE THAT IS, AT OR ABOVE THE RELIEF LIMIT (AT the limit so that this "MAY" get through to you).


Yeah, so? ... I’ve said that many times in this thread. Everything that comes out of the pump either goes through the filter/engine circuit OR is split between the filter/engine circuit and the relief valve that spits flow back to the sump. No news here.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Let's say that 50% of the 100% is shunted/relieved (for example)

That means that 80% of the flow is going through the filter and the engine.


Whoa ... if 50% of the 100% pump volume output is shunted/relieved, then 50% of the flow is going to through the filter and the engine – NOT 80%. Probably a typo – no one is that bad at math.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So, 50% of the flow with 100% of the pressure applied. What pressure is the engine going to see?

A:50% of what it would if it was receiving 100% of the flow. No denying that ...DOOD.


Not necessarily true. The pressure the engine is going to see will be equal to 85 psi (supply pressure in relief mode) minus whatever the filter PSID will be with this 50% flow volume flowing through it. Again, the PSID across any flow device (restriction) will be determined by the flow volume, oil viscosity and flow resistance of the device. In any pump relief mode case (at any given point in time - meaning all conditions being constant), the flow volume going to the filter/engine is the max possible since the pump is holding the supply pressure at a constant 85 psi – more on that later.

So the actual pressure the engine sees in this case will be totally dependant on what filter PSID is generated by this “50% flow” volume. The only way the filter/engine could receive 100% of the pump flow would be if the pump was out of relief mode just below the relief pressure (ie, 84.9999 psi). The filter/engine can also receive 100% of the pump flow if the supply pressure is well below relief pressure ... BUT, in order for that to happen it would mean that the pump RPM was less, which produces less volume and a pressure below the relief valve setting.

The bottom line is that the pump can not push any more volume through the filter/engine circuit than the 85 psi will allow. Any excess volume beyond that will go out the relief valve and back to the sump. As always, assume viscosity is constant in these examples.

On a side note ... the actual relationship between pressure and fluid flow volume rate through a fixed resistance is not a linear function ... but for simplicity sake we can assume that it is in your example. Flow volume rate is actually proportional to the square root of pressure. Guess who says so – your buddy, Bernoulli.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So, if you take our 85lb max ..and take 50% of that, we would have 42.5 across the engine ..and 42.5 across the filter.


The engine could only see 50% of the 85 psi pressure IF the filter had exactly the same resistance to flow as the engine did, and caused half of the 85 psi supply pressure to drop across the filter (a 42.5 PSID). That’s not the case ... do you really think a filter will have the same flow resistance as the engine. Remember your 2 ft dia pipe vs. 1/2 “ dia pipe analogy? You’ve said may times that the engine is magnitudes more restrictive than the filter ... so why are you now saying they are the same. That PSID breakdown is NOT possible unless the filter was just as resistive to flow as the engine was in this serial flow circuit.

The filter will have a PSID across it that is totally dependant on flow volume, oil viscosity and filter resistance – call it a realistic 5 psi pressure drop in this case since we both know a filter is MUCH less restrictive than the engine. That means in this case that the engine’s inlet pressure (ie, oil pressure gauge) would be reading 80 psi (85 psi – 5 psi).

The amount of pressure drop across the filter and engine will always be split in proportion to the resistance ratio of each in the flow circuit – the sum will always add up to the supply pressure (of course). Also (and this is KEY), the amount of volume that the pump sends to the filter/engine circuit while in relief mode is also dependant on the oil viscosity and filter/engine flow path resistance. The engine’s resistance is fixed, so if you put in a more restrictive filter on the car, then there will be less volume going to the filter/engine while in pump relief mode - 85 psi supply will push less volume as the flow path resistance goes up, and the rest of the pump volume output goes back to the sump. This is exactly why some guys see a lower oil pressure when using a more restrictive oil filter. Of course, cold start/run scenarios is where this will show up the most.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
BUT WAIT, we have a filter bypass that doesn't allow this to occur. It's maxed @ 23lb..so the engine MUST SEE

85-23=62 regardless of what the filter would offer in resistance if no bypass valve existed.

That's why it is there.


Yeah, I agree that the filter’s bypass valve will indeed limit the filter’s max PSID, and in turn “ensure” enough oil volume gets to the engine. That maybe one aspect of its function, but I really do not think the main purpose of the filter bypass valve is there to regulate how much oil pressure/flow the engine sees. The filter bypass valve setting is really there to ensure that the filter will only go into bypass mode when it’s supposed to. If the bypass setting is set TOO LOW for a particular application, then it will be bypassing unfiltered oil much too often and longer as compared to a filter with the right bypass setting. The “ultimate goal” IMO, is to have an oil filter that never goes into bypass mode unless it’s getting too loaded up with contaminates to the point where the filter is choking engine pressure to the danger point, or the filter element can’t take the PSID (which ever occurs first).

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
As the flow is more and more biased to the filter/engine, that pressure differential MUST retreat.


Major error here. There is no such thing as ... “the flow is more and more biased to the filter/engine” resulting in a “retreat” (decrease) in the pressure differential between the filter and engine. That is what you mean, I assume?

That is because when the oil pump is in relief mode - and assuming the relief valve works perfectly to keep the supply pressure right at 85 psi – then the flow volume going to the filter/engine is going to be constant (with constant oil viscosity). I tried to point this out earlier, but you don’t seem to read/comprehend my stuff. Any time the oil pump is in relief mode the oil volume going to the filter/engine is constant, and will be the max possible for the system conditions at that exact point in time. As the pump goes out of relief mode - which can only happen if the engine RPM has decreased if all conditions are constant – then the pump output volume to decrease as well, and less volume will be going to the filter/engine.

When the pump hits the relief pressure, the flow to the filter/engine stays at a max constant while the flow going back into the pump increases as the pump’s output increases with the supply pressure at 85 psi.

[quote=Gary Allan]If you can't admit that MORE FLOW through the engine will drop more pressure ..then you've just spit in Ballony's eye.[quote]

The only thing that is pure B-O-L-O-N-E-Y around here is some of your thoughts on how an oiling system like this really works – and also your writing skills at times..
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#1421223 - 03/31/09 07:48 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
This is getting really time consuming, and frankly my time could be spent on better things.


Translation: Surrender is near.


Dood, all you have to do is rationalize my bona fide witnessed results and show me an alternative paradigm.

You can't do that.

So you suggest "disbelief" of what I assure you occurs. You, effectively, are calling me a liar. I've told you what occurs, and you can't figure out how.

Go get yourself a set of gauges and perform the tests yourself.
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#1421239 - 03/31/09 08:01 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
This is getting really time consuming, and frankly my time could be spent on better things.


Translation: Surrender is near.

Dood, all you have to do is rationalize my bona fide witnessed results and show me an alternative paradigm.

You can't do that.

So you suggest "disbelief" of what I assure you occurs. You, effectively, are calling me a liar. I've told you what occurs, and you can't figure out how.

Go get yourself a set of gauges and perform the tests yourself.


Like I said, tests can be setup wrong, ran wrong, and interpreted wrong. That doesn't make you a liar, but a bad tester. ;\)

Surrender is not near ... but you have to admit that this is getting pretty frickin' ridiculous. Is that all it is to you ... who's going to "surrender" first? I've battled with a few like you for nearly a year on something that even others on the board chimed in on to verify my inputs, and the guy I was dealing with STILL didn't believe the truth.

I understand most of your inputs, but there are some things that you think happen that just can't.

Also ... you didn't even read my last post in detail because you responded as soon as you read the first few sentences. Read my responses carefully, and you'll (might) see things differently ... especially on what's going on during pump relief.

OK ... let's start a new direction of discussion in this. I want you to post up exactly how your test setup was, and all the exact details of the test run and the results you saw. I have over 20 years experence in the test world ... let's see your [censored].
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#1421291 - 03/31/09 08:38 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
The main problem is that you view the filter as a static resistance. If you push enough volume through it, then, sure, it will show some increased PSID (non-relief).


There is always some level of PSID in a filter if there is flow through it. The filter PSID can not exceed it's bypass valve setting (assuming the bypass valve can bypass 100% effectively). Yeah, so ... I've stated this MANY times.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This is NOTHING compared to what a filter can present in terms of resistance to flow when you don't have the downstream (back pressure) as a choke. This back pressure is much more in a non-relief state.


In my discussions, I'm always assuming there is total flow throughout the system, so there will indeed be "backpressure" on the filter. But it still does not retract from the fact that if there is flow through the filter there is an associated PSID.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
A filter in a normal pressure applied (non-positive displacement) scenario is a virtual brick wall to flow.


Give me an exact example of that scenario.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
This is why it's so critical for you to understand the dynamics of what occur when the oil pump goes into relief. It "unmasks" the restrictive properties of the media that are virtually transparent when you're out of relief. Out of relief, the engine trumps it BIG TIME.


Like I've said before, this is how I see it ...

When the oil pump goes into relief mode (at say 85 psi), it is sending the maximum amount of oil volume possible to the filter/engine at that instant in time based on the total flow resistance of the filter/engine flow path.

The pump will force a constant flow volume through the filter/engine circuit with an 85 psi supply pressure, no matter how fast you turn the oil pump after it hits relief pressure (assuming the relief valve is 100% effective). That filter/engine flow volume will be the max possible at that instant in time, and you will see the max filter PSID and max engine pressure at this same point in time.

Any flow volume out of pump relief mode will mean less filter PSID and also less engine oil pressure because the actual volume going through the filter/engine flow path is now less than it was when the pump was in relief mode at 85 psi. Don't you see that?
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#1421365 - 03/31/09 09:38 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
I stop reading where you go astray. It's that simple. You "force" stuff and merely "work it through" without supporting "here, see?"

You fail to "demonstrate" any sound methodical rationale to support your "stuff". Just stating something is so and expecting it to be that way.

You've focused on just dismissing my assertions and not truly disproving them.

Again, I can't argue in Ballony's (spell it as you please) world. I told you that from the beginning. What's clear is that you can't work outside of your preconceived box and effectively explain things that are occurring in the real world. While I'm sure Bulloni is right, you can't integrate that there are situations where you've applied universal constants in the wrong proportions.

Concession is conspicuously absent where it should be painfully apparent.

..but you had to be the new sheriff in town ..so


 Quote:
I want you to post up exactly how your test setup was, and all the exact details of the test run and the results you saw. I have over 20 years experence in the test world ... let's see your sh*t.


At first, in an attempt to keep you honest, I was going to say "Oh ..no, pal. You first describe acceptable testing procedures and I'll see if mine conform to them" ..since I predict that you'll just pull more stuff out of your behind to discount the test platform.

Now if you find flaw with this, then you'll bury yourself for all time in trolldom


I used a Permacool sandwich adapter with the poppet relief welded shut. I then routed it to a dual Permacool filter mount where I used a block adapter on one of the filter mounts and a filter on the other. Hence pressure was read above and below the filter. This was routed to the two pressure gauges that you have seen. I later installed a 0-20 (or maybe 0-15, I had two - one stolen with the van) differential pressure gauge across the same setup.



The only time there was ever any appreciable PSID was during a relief event. That would be where the upstream reading attenuated (it always reached this pressure upon cold start) @ 82psi and the downstream side stopped at a lower level. Then the basement rose to (almost) meet the ceiling. This was always the case.

A loaded filter (9k) merely increased the level of PSID and elongated its duration upon startup ..but produced no substantial static PSID. That is, the 9k filter quickly retreated to 4PSID and then retreated even more as the oil warmed. @150F oil temp, running the rpms up into higher speeds (like the shifting point @ WOT but not achieved using WOT) produced a "surge" of PSID that retreated.

I had more images, but Sony Imagestation went bye-bye. Most of the images from where I had the differential pressure gauge installed ..along with the outside thermometer showing 27F temp ..the start up PSID with a sump full of 15w-40 oil and images at startup ..30sec ..a minute ..a few minutes later on the highway ..etc..etc..etc.


..but kohade, spin'r up

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#1421929 - 04/01/09 01:08 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I stop reading where you go astray. It's that simple. You "force" stuff and merely "work it through" without supporting "here, see?"

You fail to "demonstrate" any sound methodical rationale to support your "stuff". Just stating something is so and expecting it to be that way.

You've focused on just dismissing my assertions and not truly disproving them.


I told you it was a waste of my time. How can you even try to see what I'm saying when you stop reading when you think I "go astray". I read every letter of your sheet and respond with the reasons why I think you've gone astray. If you're not reading and addressing places where you think I'm wrong, then it's just a clear sign that you have a closed mind on this stuff or can't come up with an argument to disprove my inputs.

Bottom line is you can't stand to be wrong, and I'd bet if you all of a sudden realized you were wrong you wouldn't admit to it. Honestly, I would admit that I'm wrong if proven so ... but so far that hasn't happened yet because we have two views on this stuff that just don't correlate with each other on many points - and you have not convinced me otherwise (just like I haven’t' convinced you otherwise). Is it a communication breakdown?? ... could be. But like I said before, the conversation is getting pretty ridiculous and out of focus at this time.

I might try to give you a couple more examples of what I see going on in the oiling system ... if I think it might get something across. What really needs to happen is to get a couple other people involved in this discussion to back up the one who is right ... but apparently nobody wants to voice their insight on this stuff. I will respond to your test setup and info above when I have more time ... you see, I have a full time job that's way more important at times then arguing on the frickin' internet.
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#1421996 - 04/01/09 02:28 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
So ..I guess you see nothing wrong with my testing procedure or platform ..

..so I have to be a liar or psychotic and imagined it all, right?


...and just to make sure everyone here understands ..


You've NEVER done this type of testing yourself, right???

Thank you very much.
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#1422082 - 04/01/09 04:17 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Again, I can't argue in Ballony's (spell it as you please) world. I told you that from the beginning. What's clear is that you can't work outside of your preconceived box and effectively explain things that are occurring in the real world. While I'm sure Bulloni is right, you can't integrate that there are situations where you've applied universal constants in the wrong proportions.

Concession is conspicuously absent where it should be painfully apparent.

..but you had to be the new sheriff in town ..so


There has been nothing apparent enough to warrant concession on either’s part – obviously. That’s the whole problem here. If you think I’m trying to be “the new sheriff in town”, then that must mean you consider yourself the "current sheriff". Perspective is a funny thing, isn’t it?

Listen, when there are different viewpoints on something, then a debate on why usually happens. If it turns into a pizzing match, or an ego trip, or who’s going to “surrender, or who’s going to concede the most, or who’s really the “sheriff” ... then it’s time to hang up the bullsh*t. I’ve been in plenty of internet battles with people who are on the wrong track about things. It usually doesn’t turn out well if the person in the wrong is so deep seeded in their thoughts that nothing will prove to them that they are off base.

As far a Bernoulli ... well, he was probably a genius for his time and he developed many of the fluid dynamic laws and equations that are still used today in modern engineering. When he’s right, he’s right forever. Physical properties and behaviors on Earth don’t change with time as far as I know.


 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
So ..I guess you see nothing wrong with my testing procedure or platform ..

..so I have to be a liar or psychotic and imagined it all, right?


...and just to make sure everyone here understands ..


You've NEVER done this type of testing yourself, right???

Thank you very much.


I haven’t sat down long enough to analyze your testing ... so you’ll have to just wait. Just because you ran a test and saw something still means you could have mis-interpreted the results you saw. I’ve been around testing for a long time and believe me, it happens a lot were the test data was mis-interpreted, or in some tests there was not enough data to make the correct conclusion. For instance, in your test how do you know exactly when the filter’s bypass valve was opening? (or not) ... did you have a motion sensor on it that showed exactly when it started opening? Stuff like that may need to be known to make an accurate assessment of what’s really going on.

No, I have not ran the same test you have. Doesn’t mean I don’t know what to expect from the known physics of fluid flow, etc. In real science, the expected results usually match the test results, and that is what gives more validation to the experiment.

Another comment needs to be made. That’s the fact that focus of exactly WTF we are trying to prove to each other has gone completely into the fog zone. I have a feeling that at times we are talking about two different things because the focus is continually changing which makes it very difficult to even communicate effectively.

So, let me ask you .... EXACTLY WHAT is it that you are trying to prove with your experiment? What is the exact fluid dynamic phenomenon this is supposed to prove or disprove? I need to know exactly what you are proving with this experiment before I look closely at the results.
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#1422237 - 04/01/09 06:43 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
I’ve been around testing for a long time and believe me, it happens a lot were the test data was mis-interpreted, or in some tests there was not enough data to make the correct conclusion.


Absolutely ..and if you care to accept my observations as valid ..and care to offer a plausible alternative school of thought, I'd be more than willing to entertain it. I've "back viewed" cause and effect and constructed the only relationship that is apparent under the presented conditions.

..but you appear to be stuck somewhere else where you have some preconceptions that, while totally valid, aren't nearly as applicable in most of our usage. Kinda like how Audi pointed out the fuel economy advantages of all wheel drive ..but failed to mention that it was at speeds in excess of 100mpg (this was the first Quatro "back in the day")

 Quote:
It usually doesn’t turn out well if the person in the wrong is so deep seeded in their thoughts that nothing will prove to them that they are off base.


I agree. I recommend getting your own setup on an engine and see what you see. I think that it won't change your mind on what you're convinced of. I don't think you're wrong ..but it will open aspects of oil flow and pressure differentials that have not occurred to you.

I wish Bull-oni were here. Really. I think he would say to you, "I understand your confusion, SuperBusa. While Gary is a relative undisciplined neanderthalic fool, he's correctly identified the altered views that one must adopt as one switches from a positive displacement environment to a pressure/resistance environment. Just because he struggles to adequately describe it in terms you can identify ..is not reason to reject it.".
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#1422302 - 04/01/09 07:38 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
For instance, in your test how do you know exactly when the filter’s bypass valve was opening? (or not)


Sorry, forgot this.

I did see one event where the differential gauge reached the range of the normal Purolator bypass setting on the 9k loaded filter with 15w-40 oil @ 28F with overnight temps of the low 20's/high teens. The condition was brief ..like 30 sec.

With a new Pureone filter, the smallest one that they make in the 3/4-16 thread (or I could find, maybe) ..I thought the gauge was broken. I had to wonder if the blip that I thought I saw was a placebo effect, or some vibration from the engine on initial firing. It was that "unremarkable".

This would not be the situation with all engine/filter combo's. My 2.5 jeep resides at or near the relief level all the time. Depending on what visc oil I use, I would be in some state of elevated PSID based on visc (mostly) whenever off idle. Same with my wife's HV pump's 4.0. Both are slammed up against the relief most of the time. You have to use 20 grade in the 4.0 to "fit" all the volume through at full warm up ..with the 2.5, I THINK, I can manage to get into a decent range of flow within the relief limit. Throw in 5w-40 ..and neither will be out of relief. THEN the PSID will vary depending on visc. The higher PSID will retreat to a lower PSID.


Here's a state that I think you've failed to consider (me too, for that matter). It will probably work with your basic rationale to this whole deal.

If a pump was in perpetual relief, all of your assumptions about filter resistance will be 100% valid (at least I think so). There you would/should have all of your pressure drops responding directly to volume. Cold oil, high PSID, hot oil ..low PSID ..but it would always vary with the volume through it ..high or low. You would still have to figure some way of having the filter reduce it's relative resistance while still dropping the supply across both. I'm not sure (haven't thought it out too far), but I think you would have to see the engine side (on my two gauge setup) dip assuming that you don't exceed the oil pump's relief capacity. Both must add up to supply, so any increase in PSID must reduce the drop across the engine. It would be very odd to see.

I can't think straight at the moment, but I think that this too would require more flow being shunted to the relief.
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#1422321 - 04/01/09 07:56 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
..but you appear to be stuck somewhere else where you have some preconceptions that, while totally valid, aren't nearly as applicable in most of our usage. Kinda like how Audi pointed out the fuel economy advantages of all wheel drive ..but failed to mention that it was at speeds in excess of 100mpg (this was the first Quatro "back in the day").


Listen ... like I said earlier, these discussions have put shrapnel all over the place, and the focus we are both on could have went 180 deg out from each other and caused a complete derailment in the discussion. I'm talking about one thing ... you're talking about something else when we think we are talking about the same thing ... so we both think the other one is wrong. I’m hoping that is really the case.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
It usually doesn’t turn out well if the person in the wrong is so deep seeded in their thoughts that nothing will prove to them that they are off base.


I agree. I recommend getting your own setup on an engine and see what you see. I think that it won't change your mind on what you're convinced of. I don't think you're wrong ..but it will open aspects of oil flow and pressure differentials that have not occurred to you.


See what I said just above. These discussions have gone in every direction possible, and we've gotten out of phase along the way. Both gotta re-focus and open the mind, and look at one thing at a time.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I wish Bull-oni were here. Really. I think he would say to you, "I understand your confusion, SuperBusa. While Gary is a relative undisciplined neanderthalic fool, he's correctly identified the altered views that one must adopt as one switches from a positive displacement environment to a pressure/resistance environment. Just because he struggles to adequately describe it in terms you can identify ..is not reason to reject it.".


Now, now ... don't get too full of yourself just yet. I'm sure 'ol Bernoulli would have a thing or two to say with regard to your understanding and confusion factor at times too. ;\)
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