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#1411926 - 03/23/09 08:41 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
Thingfish Offline


Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 348
Loc: Colorado
FWIW, I fit the 51344 in my '03 wrx. With a 0/20 BTW..
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#1412155 - 03/23/09 12:54 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
So, it sounds like your suggestion is to put whatever oil filter on this car and not worry about it? Ö that seems kind of careless to me.


I dunno. Maybe "I" wouldn't worry about it. Then again, I use 0w-10 oil, so what do I know

You're just getting fall out from our last slug fest, that's all. In evaporators, it's called "carry over".

 Quote:
Actually, it would NOT flow 12.4 gpm when the oil is cold


Let's read this again ...for clarity ...

Cold start relief events: MANY

5000rpm 12.4gpm events: FEW

Likely duration of dwell time in bypass

Cold start relief events: MANY


I don't see any reference to 12.4gpm of cold flowing oil, just cold start events. Do you really see it (imagine a piece of paper that I flip over and examine both sides ..several times ..and blink as though to clear my eyes)


I don't see any statement saying the oil is hot either. And why would you worry about 12.4 gpm at 5000 RPM with hot oil anyway? ... didn't we conclude (more than once) that is an operating condition that is not as critical as cold starts and high engine RPM during oil warm-up phase? Don't weasel out here ... are you studying to become a kangaroo court lawyer in your spare time?
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#1412301 - 03/23/09 03:23 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
I don't see any statement saying the oil is hot either.


Well, we've probably both figured out that you probably couldn't push 12.4 gpm of cold oil through the engine ..you would be in a relief event (most likely) ...and that's where we're nearer the "cold start" scenario.

 Quote:
didn't we conclude (more than once) that is an operating condition that is not as critical as cold starts and high engine RPM during oil warm-up phase?


I didn't see any conclusion on your part (I may have lost it in the salvos). I've seen you repeatedly cite the hot oil 12.5 gpm scenario to bolster your pressure/restriction POV ..and, in implication, attempt to apply it over the full span of operation. ..or did I get that wrong?

 Quote:
are you studying to become a kangaroo court lawyer in your spare time?


Debate is an art, my friend. I do thank you for challenging me at my limits. The art of winning any debate is conceding to the obvious and passing over it and moving on to promote your POV with reasons that show its advantages/strengths. You'll note my repeated (and ignored) references to "granted and conceded to". You went on to treat me as a plebe on primary fundamentals of differentials and pressures, bogging the discussion down in needlessly redundant information ..while never attacking my basic way of viewing the events as they occur. "Let's get beyond this and see if you can manage this" fell on deaf ears.

I was sitting there with my partner and we had a problem with the evaporator and he couldn't understand it. I blurted out as close a parallel scenario in another system as I could in an attempt to get him to relate to what was going on. He gave me some static about the lack of contour to what was at hand. I then said, "For a minute ..pretend that you actually want to understand what I'm saying and not engage in an argument". He paused ..and nodded his head in understanding. He had to choose to employ the abstract thought process. It wasn't a natural act for him. For me, it's FIRST nature.

This is how I've rationalized these physical events. If you're going to install a new paradigm for me, you're going to have to work from within my understanding and make it not work. For that, you'll first have to attempt to see how I've got where I am and then prove that pathway to be in error. I can't think too much outside of the box that I've constructed. I don't have the disciplined back ground to do so.
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#1412441 - 03/23/09 05:46 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

 Quote:
didn't we conclude (more than once) that is an operating condition that is not as critical as cold starts and high engine RPM during oil warm-up phase?


I didn't see any conclusion on your part (I may have lost it in the salvos). I've seen you repeatedly cite the hot oil 12.5 gpm scenario to bolster your pressure/restriction POV ..and, in implication, attempt to apply it over the full span of operation. ..or did I get that wrong?


The conclusion is buried in here somewhere Ė you just skim over some of this stuff Iím willing to bet. The ďbolsteredĒ examples were to show just how much flow volume the filter would have to take on in a max flow case ... which is obviously hot oil without any pump relief - or even just warm oil since the pump isnít near the 85 psi relief at quoted flow spec. Since the 12.4 gpm flow spec was quoted at 43 psi, and the pump relieves at 85 psi, then all 12.4 gpm will go through the filter. IMO, that is one reason the filterís bypass is set to 23 psi ... because 12.4 gpm, even with warm oil, is a HUGE flow rate compared to some engines and can create a pretty significant PSID. Of course, there could be a worse case than that if whatever flow rate (in gpm) you can get through the filter with cold oil with 85 psi pushing it through the system. The higher viscosity at a much reduced flow rate would probably cause the highest PSID case. Of course, without doing some heavy duty number crunching, or and actual flow test one would not know for sure.

What do you think a typical say LSx GM V8 engine flows at near redline? I guess I could get my factory service manual out and see ... but Iíd be very surprised if it is near 12.4 gpm at max flow conditions. Of course, most GM V8s use a somewhat larger filter than the Subaru in this discussion, so that alone helps the designed bypass PSI setting come down some.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Debate is an art, my friend. I do thank you for challenging me at my limits. The art of winning any debate is conceding to the obvious and passing over it and moving on to promote your POV with reasons that show its advantages/strengths.


Humm ... seems more than not you will challenge the obvious described by me, just to put it in your own words Ė or many you donít quite grasp the concept because itís not described in a manner you expect (?). This is what makes these round Ďn round discussions (on both our parts) at times one big cluster [you know what]. ;\)
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#1412478 - 03/23/09 06:19 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
What do you think a typical say LSx GM V8 engine flows at near redline? I guess I could get my factory service manual out and see ... but Iíd be very surprised if it is near 12.4 gpm at max flow conditions. Of course, most GM V8s use a somewhat larger filter than the Subaru in this discussion, so that alone helps the designed bypass PSI setting come down some.


It's probably quite high. I don't know if it would be in the 12gpm realm ..but I wouldn't be surprised with 10+/-.

We keep defaulting to the ultra ubber here.

You're new, so you haven't heard ..literally thousands of times... "I've purchased XYZ filter because it flows better" when flow is not a function of the filter. It's a function of the pump.

It's the difference of two people viewing "I chose 10w-40 so it would be thicker when hot and thinner when cold". While I'm giving orientation on the fact that the cold spec is VERY THICK (which would not be apparent in the static statement without qualification) ..you're up there on the 40 weight properties.

 Quote:
Humm ... seems more than not you will challenge the obvious described by me, just to put it in your own words Ė or many you donít quite grasp the concept because itís not described in a manner you expect (?).


I see said the reflection in the mirror.
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#1412578 - 03/23/09 07:24 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: LoneRanger]
WagonBoss Offline


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 192
Loc: Northern Virginia
After lurking around this site for several years and recently registering I'm compelled to make my first post. I have 2 Subies to maintain and found this a very interesting discussion, though much was far over my head.

I wrote to customer service at Hastings and this is the reply, though not technically helpful I found it to be an honest statement FWIW.

Recently there has been a bit of discussion on Subaru lube filters and the Subaru oil system on enthusiasts forums. The gist is that Subaru recently announced a new filter which the user community believes is produced by Honeywell (Fram) to Subaru specifications. Frankly, there is not much happiness in this new product. The discussion on the oil system indicates that Subaru uses a high volume oil pump and specifies a 23 PSID pressure relief valve.
I have two Subaru cars with the 4 cylinder 2.5 liter non-turbo engine. Both use a LF113 (or the longer LF240). My search through the various filter manufacturers' sites (Hastings/Baldwin, Wix, Fram, and Purolator) reveals that no filters, searched for my application, contains the 23 PSID pressure relief valve as specified. My primary concern is cold flow on startup as these are daily drivers - not a performance application. I use 5w-30 oil as recommended by the owners manual.
Should I be concerned about the difference between the 14 PSID spec on the LF113 and the factory spec of 23 PSID? Is there any technical reason the correct pressure relief is not available? Are there any plans to offer a filter with the correct specification?

Thanks in advance for your help. It is quite bewildering to have this great a variance in specifications.


REPLY:
Thank you for using Hastings Filters. I do not recommend using a filter with a 14-16 psi bypass valve in an application which calls for a filter with a 23 psi by-pass valve. We design our filters with a 3 psi maximum tolerance with regards to bypass valves. Therefore, I doubt that we would cross the new Subaru number to either the LF113 or the LF240. We do have a very similar filter with a 20 psi bypass valve. This is the LF491. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me.
Cordially,

TRAVIS R. WINBERG
SUPERVISOR OF SERVICE ENGINEERING
_________________________
2009 Outback 2.5i
2008 Impreza 2.5i
L14460/Formula Shell 5w-30
2004 Corolla
L14476/Formula Shell 5w-30
2012 Chrysler 300
Wix 57526/QSUD 5w-30

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#1412601 - 03/23/09 07:41 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
What do you think a typical say LSx GM V8 engine flows at near redline? I guess I could get my factory service manual out and see ... but Iíd be very surprised if it is near 12.4 gpm at max flow conditions. Of course, most GM V8s use a somewhat larger filter than the Subaru in this discussion, so that alone helps the designed bypass PSI setting come down some.


It's probably quite high. I don't know if it would be in the 12gpm realm ..but I wouldn't be surprised with 10+/-.


I've got the factory service manual for a 2002 LS1/LS6, so I'll see if it has any oil system specs listed.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You're new, so you haven't heard ..literally thousands of times... "I've purchased XYZ filter because it flows better" when flow is not a function of the filter. It's a function of the pump.


That statement is way too general, or just plain wrong. ;\) In actuality, the flow volume THROUGH THE SYSTEM (which includes the filter) is a function of the pump's supply pressure AND the flow circuit resistance. Yeah, the pump's output performance has a bearing on the system flow, but so does the flow circuit's resistance which includes the filter (PSID). IF a filter is indeed was very restrictive, then it WILL effect the flow volume going through the engine - especially if the oil is cold or is very high volume. For some reason you can't seem to grasp this concept - please tell me you're on the same page here. You have to look at the entire SYSTEM to see what's going on. If you have a constant pump supply pressure, then the oil flow will choke down more and more through the circuit as the restriction to flow increases. The ONLY way a filter will NOT affect the oil flow going through an engine is if it has zero flow PSID (impossible) or the bypass is set to zero (doubt it).

Man in the mirror looking ... humm.
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#1412606 - 03/23/09 07:49 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
WagonBoss - interesting reply from Subaru, and right in line with the discussions here. So glad you joined in, and amazing that it took a wild thread like this one to get you to post.

 Originally Posted By: Subaru Tech Dept
I do not recommend using a filter with a 14-16 psi bypass valve in an application which calls for a filter with a 23 psi by-pass valve. We design our filters with a 3 psi maximum tolerance with regards to bypass valves.


The high volume pump is the reason why Subaru recommends using a filter with the 23 psi bypass setting. They understand that with higher volume of oil going through the filter, that there is a corresponding higher pressure drop across the element and have taken measures to ensure less filter bypass occurances. If they only have a 3 psi max tolerance (ie, "headroom") on the bypass setting, then they expect to see 20 PSID events across the filter element - at least that's how I read it.
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#1412622 - 03/23/09 08:09 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
WagonBoss Offline


Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 192
Loc: Northern Virginia
Just for clarity the reply was from Hastings Filter - not Subaru. I found it interesting they aren't recommending the filter they say is the correct filter for the application.
_________________________
2009 Outback 2.5i
2008 Impreza 2.5i
L14460/Formula Shell 5w-30
2004 Corolla
L14476/Formula Shell 5w-30
2012 Chrysler 300
Wix 57526/QSUD 5w-30

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#1412645 - 03/23/09 08:44 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: WagonBoss]
deeter16317 Offline


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: SE, PA
Couple points...

At almost 50 quarts of oil per minute, would you not expect the pump to literally suck the sump empty?? Sorry, but the oil doesn't return to the sump that fast in the real world as it gets hung up on things...

And do you REALLY think you are using almost 50 quarts per minute?? Think about the clearances...while the pump might be able to flow that much oil, its doubtful the engine (even in a completely worn out scenario) would flow that much oil...

If the clearances actually allowed that much flow, the engine would starve of oil at an idle...
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#1412723 - 03/23/09 09:53 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: deeter16317]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: Midwest
Okay, to clear up any questions as to the oil pump specs I posted here is the service manual excerp:

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'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

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#1412728 - 03/23/09 09:59 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: LoneRanger]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: Midwest
WagonBoss, good info from Hastings there. I'm now resigned to using the blue OE Subaru filter, though. This discussion has moved me to that conclusion, and that is a good thing in the end, even if I'm not a huge fan of Honeywell (FRAM) filter materials and design it is the factory authorized part and apparently these blue ones are the ones going on Subaru's leaving the assembly plant in Lafayette, Indiana (accross the river from my Alma Mater-- Go Purdue!). Also,in the rare event something comes up with my motor, being under warranty, Subaru can't balk on a claim over anything to do with the oil filter if its an OE (provided I can prove adherance to the maintenance schedule in the manual).
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#1412857 - 03/24/09 02:10 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: LoneRanger]
Thingfish Offline


Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 348
Loc: Colorado
With the WIX filter having an 8-11 GPM max flow rate, wouldn't the filter have to be in bypass at high rpms? Even with 0/20 @ 180 oil temp ( Motul 300v 0/20 ) I still see almost 75-80 psi at almost anything above idle. Fwiw, my redline is in excess of 8K rpm on 91 octane, and I deal with cars that exceed 9K rpm on race fuel. It would be frightening to think that everything is going past the media. ( I typically use nothing but oversized WIX and Amsoil filters )

For some reason, I see Subarus flow rates being a typo or mistake ( Wishfull thinking maybe? ). I am looking through my WRX factory manuals, but cannot find the info.

Being a Subaru specialist, I have bumped into mistakes with Subaru info many times in the past.


Looks like I may have to look into a remote filter mount, with a pair of filters in parallel. It would at least give me a chance to use VERY large filters.
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#1412863 - 03/24/09 02:22 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: LoneRanger]
Thingfish Offline


Registered: 01/13/06
Posts: 348
Loc: Colorado
 Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
WagonBoss, good info from Hastings there. I'm now resigned to using the blue OE Subaru filter, though. This discussion has moved me to that conclusion, and that is a good thing in the end, even if I'm not a huge fan of Honeywell (FRAM) filter materials and design it is the factory authorized part and apparently these blue ones are the ones going on Subaru's leaving the assembly plant in Lafayette, Indiana (accross the river from my Alma Mater-- Go Purdue!). Also,in the rare event something comes up with my motor, being under warranty, Subaru can't balk on a claim over anything to do with the oil filter if its an OE (provided I can prove adherance to the maintenance schedule in the manual).



The Purolator for the Subaru, ( the 14460 ) has a 20-25 psi bypass.
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#1412892 - 03/24/09 03:37 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
That statement is way too general, or just plain wrong.


Well, it is a general statement. As it stands it is 100% correct. There is no functional way that a filter can produce flow or inhibit flow by itself. It requires some alteration of the pump.

..btw- I'll see if Lone Ranger has a schematic of where the tap is for the pressure reading. If it's downstream of the filter, then the pump will see 60 psi @ the 12.4gpm @ 17xF at whatever visc it's spec'd at. It will elevate the pressure as seen by the pump. I suspect that it is.

 Quote:
In actuality, the flow volume THROUGH THE SYSTEM (which includes the filter) is a function of the pump's supply pressure AND the flow circuit resistance


Well, in actuality ..it's far easier to figure that the pump will have variable pressure, at a given IMMUTABLE VOLUME, through a given restriction.

Here's Bernelli for you, yo!

 Quote:
Yeah, the pump's output performance has a bearing on the system flow, but so does the flow circuit's resistance which includes the filter (PSID). IF a filter is indeed was very restrictive, then it WILL effect the flow volume going through the engine - especially if the oil is cold or is very high volume.


That statement is way too general and just plain wrong. The pump, in the vacuum in the absence of senseless qualification that you seem to insist that I waste time on ..but are too lazy to do yourself, could care less whether it sees cold glue. Our theoretical pump has no boundaries unless they're qualified. Did Bernelli only exist in the mundane of what he could practically do??

For some reason you seem to grasp and lose this concept depending on which post you're typing.

 Quote:
You have to look at the entire SYSTEM to see what's going on.


I'm afraid that you don't. I don't have to know internal pump head or anything that you insist is essential to know/see the effects upon the filter. You seem to be unable to divorce Bernelli from the undeniable physical events and give them powers that aren't essential to understanding what occurs (more often then not).

 Quote:
If you have a constant pump supply pressure, then the oil flow will choke down more and more through the circuit as the restriction to flow increases.


Again, in your unqualified statement, that's just plain wrong. Double the oil gallery and all passages in the engine and run the pump at the same rate ..the same volume will be flowing. The pressure developed will be less (assume for the sake of discussion that the pump is of 100% efficiency and that the pump is operated at some rational flow rate to avoid marginal/exceptional influences - how's that for qualification).

This is one concept that you have 100% inability to grasp. You keep going back to a faucet.

 Quote:
The ONLY way a filter will NOT affect the oil flow going through an engine is if it has zero flow PSID (impossible) or the bypass is set to zero (doubt it).


So, now you're implying that if Subaru eliminated the filter ..that the 12.4gpm figure would be more (under the same qualified conditions that I described)??

NOW we're really getting somewhere here.
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