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#1411294 - 03/22/09 02:58 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: edhackett]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: edhackett
LoneRanger, does the manual give the part number for the oil filter? The specifications say 124 sq. in. of filter area. I just measured the FRAM and came up with 65 sq. in. (depth of pleat x 2 x number of pleats x width of filter media).

The oversize filter such as the Wix 15356 that you are using and the Purolator PL14610 have ~130 sq. in. of media. The old AA080 Subaru filter (PL14460 size) was probably ~124 sq.in. of media.

This begs the question, would doubling the filter area balance the by-pass events? Would 65 sq. in. at 23 psi vs 130 sq. in. at 12 psi be the same?

Ed


Yes, there is definitely a relationship between the amount of filtering area to the flow restriction. Obviously, with the same filtering material used, as the flow area goes up the PSID across it will decrease with the same flow volume going through it.

Yes, it's possible that if a filter is larger and less restrictive, then the bypass setting could be set lower. For instance, imaging forcing 12 gpm through a filter the size of a thimble compared to forcing 12 gpm through a filter the size of a 55 gallon drum. Obviously, the thimble sized filer would need a very high bypass setting to ensure the oil actually went through the filter element. It all depends on the expected worse case PSID across the filter, and the expected loading factor, that will determine what the bypass setting should be set to.

If a filter manufactures does their job right, then they would know the exact flow characteristics of a specific engine and design filters accordingly.

LoneRanger - are there any filter manufactures (such as WIX, K&N, M1, etc) that actually have a filter specified for your Subaru? If so, then I would certainly think that they know it has a high volume oiling system and have designed the filter accordingly. If they made a filter, it certainly wouldn't hurt to contact their Engineering Tech Dept to get their inputs to your concern.
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#1411337 - 03/22/09 03:54 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
The volume and viscosity of the flow through any filter will develop a pressure drop proportional to the actual flow resistance characteristics of the filter assembly.


Take a 2gpm flow through an 8" conduit. Expand the conduit to 12" ..reduce the conduit to 8" ...give it a 2" outlet. How much resistance does the 12" diameter section add in pressure alteration. It decelerates the flow.

Take a 12" conduit ..narrow it to 8" ...expand it to 12" ..give it a 2" outlet. How much does the 8" section add to the pressure alteration? It accelerates the flow.

In both scenarios ..intermediate velocity changes. The mean velocity does not. Since the 2" outlet is by far the most restrictive element ..the intermediate alteration in velocity and therefore pressure, is inconsequential.

 Quote:
Why do you think manufacture's put a bypass valve in the filers? ... because they KNOW that at some point there will be a large enough PSID across the element to warrant bypassing the flow to keep the PSID to a maximum level. If a filter didn't have any possibility of producing a high PSID then they wouldn't need a bypass valve.


The bypass valve and the oil pump relief valve work in concert. They allow slack in an otherwise solid fluid transmission.

Don't tell me that you're still clinging to the absolute resistance of the filter as being the primary reason that a bypass valve operates? Please say that this is not so. It may take me going through the whole deal and actually videoing the event to prove it to you. I'll pull the remote dual oil mount out of mothballs ..hook it up on my jeep and show you the PSID when the relief event occurs. I'll show you it erode when the relief event is over.

Let's say that you have a massive filter. Suppose you've got 60 weight oil @ 32F and you attempt to move that static oil column from ZERO to 1gpm instantaneously. What do you think occurs? The oil pump spins its tires and moves next to no oil. You then have max pressure applied ..but virtually no flow. That's why it takes longer for your system to see pressure. This is where you've got the maximum differential across the filter. Max pressure and minimal flow. The media just gives you a place to read it. At that point, filter or no filter, the flow will be minimal and the pressure peaked.

Is that too hard to see? Are you unable to envision this scenario and concede to it?

 Quote:
Why do you think Subaru has such a high filter bypass setting? IMO, it's because the oil pump on that engine has a very high volume output compared to many other cars on the road 12.4 gpm is ALOT of volume.


If you care to read back on other discussions on filters with higher bypass settings (including with YOU) you'll see that I don't argue with the reason ..and this is even before you attempted to turn Bernelli over.

12.4 is an incredible volume. My HV pump could maybe match it. It's rated @ 9gpm @ 3500 rpm. Since my engine can only process about 5gpm at the same rate I have to use a 20 weight to "fit" the flow through the engine without being in relief. I have to use a 20 weight to have only fractional PSID across my media.


The more I think about it ..the more I can see the above spec's working. As I said this is a prime opportunity for you to continue down this road of non-semantic misinformation in this EXCEPTIONAL situation. It provided an environment that actually needed the 9-11 gpm limits of the filter. The vast galactic universal known dimensions do not dwell here.

 Quote:
This gives more bypass "reserve headroom" for filter loading during its use period. If they put the bypass setting lower, then it may not take much filter loading to get its flow resistance higher, and will certainly cut the headroom down for those cold oil flow scenarios.


No. It allows more filtering in anticipated relief events. Keep in mind that 175F is a good bit off of cold start.

Now it will also allow higher volume at elevated PSID without bypass ..but that won't alter the basic concept of why the two are there. The same loading should occur on 8psi bypass valve filters ...are you saying that the entire rolling population is getting screwed by not using 20psi bypass valves??? It is only at that peak volume where this would be a factor and would not apply to the same size filter at a much more typical flow rate.

 Quote:
If they put the bypass setting lower, then it may not take much filter loading to get its flow resistance higher, and will certainly cut the headroom down for those cold oil flow scenarios.


No. It will elongate the elevated PSID event beyond the cessation of the relief event. It's still not substantial. That is, the effect of volume through an effectively smaller filter will be more pronounced until the fluid warms. You're pushing a heavier fluid through a smaller passage.

 Quote:
I believe those specs from Subaru. I highly doubt they have an error in them. Until proven otherwise (like a TSB or similar from Subaru) saying there was an error in the shop manual, then those are the specs, and considered accurate.



I won't doubt them either. What you've not seen is what occurs at startup. All the spec's are at normalized temps (near enough). And I'd say that you're correct at peak flow with the numbers you're saying.

Again, all filters have a PSID @ XX gpm w/Y visc fluid passing through them. This doesn't mean squat when the choke the filter presents is minimal compared to the engine.

 Quote:
You need to look at what the Subaru system IS, instead of trying to think it must by like all the other systems out there. It's apples to oranges ... why else would Subaru have a bypass setting that is essentially DOUBLE the average bypass setting on 99+% of all other vehicles.


I've conceded to that and experience it myself ..every day. The same applied to VW/AUDI/Porsche/etc. ..except that they have ultra high pressure limits and spec relatively high visc oils. The have 30+ bypass valve settings. It's because they're in relief for up to a half hour. It takes that long to have the gauge come off of 135+ at any normal road speed.


I wish he had a gauge.
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#1411341 - 03/22/09 04:02 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
Gary ... I'm I going to have to go find Bernoulli again? - you're misinterpreting some of the physics here - or at a minimum my description of the physics. Maybe when I have the time I'll respond to some of your stuff.
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#1411349 - 03/22/09 04:16 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
I guess you will make me go through all the hardware rigging. I had a great platform to do this lame stuff on with my minivan ..but it goes stolen ..with a good bit of my hardware in it.

..but if you insist.. I will show you low volume with high differential at cold temps ..and I will show you high volume at cold temps with virtually no differential. I will also show you high volume with virtually no differential.

You'll have one out for weasel room. I won't be able to quote volume ..but ..if we're genuinely trying to work on "seeing" ..you'll forgo the opportunity to skate.

How do you think I came up with all this? Just pulled it out of my behind? No, pal. It's REAL
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#1411382 - 03/22/09 04:51 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1454
Loc: Midwest
 Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
LoneRanger - are there any filter manufactures (such as WIX, K&N, M1, etc) that actually have a filter specified for your Subaru? If so, then I would certainly think that they know it has a high volume oiling system and have designed the filter accordingly. If they made a filter, it certainly wouldn't hurt to contact their Engineering Tech Dept to get their inputs to your concern.


Wix filter for my car is 51365 with bypass rated at 8-11psi, plus it appears to be a universal filter hence the lawn tractors and outboard marine motors it also is purported to fit:

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/ResultsPart.asp?PartNo=51365

Click the part number for a pop-up with specs and fitment for the filter.

I removed the Wix 51365 this past week after this discussion made me increasingly uncomfortable with the low bypass setting.

I now have one of the OE Subaru filters on again, the Honeywell made blue ones-- local dealer sells them for $6... cheap compared to what other Subaru dealers are charging for them. Filter changes are mess-free and super easy on this car.

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#1411417 - 03/22/09 05:53 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I guess you will make me go through all the hardware rigging. I had a great platform to do this lame stuff on with my minivan ..but it goes stolen ..with a good bit of my hardware in it.

..but if you insist.. I will show you low volume with high differential at cold temps ..and I will show you high volume at cold temps with virtually no differential. I will also show you high volume with virtually no differential.

You'll have one out for weasel room. I won't be able to quote volume ..but ..if we're genuinely trying to work on "seeing" ..you'll forgo the opportunity to skate.

How do you think I came up with all this? Just pulled it out of my behind? No, pal. It's REAL


But your missing the whole point ... it's the VOLUME that's going to make or break this whole discussion. It's the volume in question that makes this situation different than in most cars on the road. Any engine that puts out tons of oil volume is going to have to use a filter that is capable of working correctly in that environment. What kind of filters are used on race cars that put out tons of oil volume? Tell you something.

My whole point here is that the Subaru's oiling system under discussion has uncommonly high volume output for a road car.

If the pump puts out high volume under hot conditions (per the spec), then it will also put out a relatively high volume output under cold oil conditions, as compared to other vehicles. That's because the oiling system is much more unrestrictive than what you are use to seeing and playing with. An unrestrictive system will flow more cold oil than a restrictive one ... and that means the filter used on it will also have to handle a higher cold oil flow volume.

Can you get your head around on just how much 12.4 gpm is? - that's like a wide open garden hose flowing. If the engine only holds say 5 quarts, that means the entire sump volume is exchanged nearly 10 times every minute if the engine was running at 5000 RPM. That's HUGE, and yes somewhat hard to believe - but we have to believe Subaru's specs unless proven false somehow.

If the system on that engine can flow 12.4 gpm with 176 deg F oil, and it only requires 43 psi of supply pressure to do so (much less than the pump's relief pressure setting), then the oiling system can not be a very restrictive compared to some other cars. In fact, it even has some margin in it's performance to flow the full 12.4 gpm with oil colder than 176 deg F, meaning you could increase the oil viscosity to the point until the pump bumps up against its 85 psi relief setting to push the 12.4 gpm through the system.

I think you are under the impression that this oiling system is like 99% of all the others on the road ... forget what you think it should do and look at what it does based on the specs from Subaru.

If you did a test where you could flow 12.4 gpm of oil (at say whatever oil temp keeps the pump just a hair below the 85 psi relief setting), I'm sure you'd see MUCH MORE than a few PSID across the element. That's why Subaru has specified a 23 psi filter bypass setting (at least on their specific OEM filter), so that they ensure the bypass doesn't open when it shouldn't.
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#1411442 - 03/22/09 06:14 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: LoneRanger]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

Wix filter for my car is 51365 with bypass rated at 8-11 psi, plus it appears to be a universal filter hence the lawn tractors and outboard marine motors it also is purported to fit:

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/ResultsPart.asp?PartNo=51365

Click the part number for a pop-up with specs and fitment for the filter.

I removed the Wix 51365 this past week after this discussion made me increasingly uncomfortable with the low bypass setting.

I now have one of the OE Subaru filters on again, the Honeywell made blue ones-- local dealer sells them for $6... cheap compared to what other Subaru dealers are charging for them. Filter changes are mess-free and super easy on this car.



I'm familiar with that filter, it's the same one called out for my V6 Altima engine (VQ35DE). I just bought the longer version for my next oil change (NAPA Gold 1356, which would be the WIX 51356) since I have enough room to run a longer filter. Can you use the longer filter? ... I think I remember you saying you can't due to clearance issues.

After looking at the oil pump specs on your Subaru, I'd also be a little nervous using a non-OEM filter unless I got specific word from the filter manufacture’s Engineering Department that they understand the oil pump on that car is high volume, and the filter has been verified to work correctly. It could be that they don't care much because after the oil warms up the filter would probably work just fine and they figure that some cold oil bypass is acceptable without any major ill effects. Hard to say exactly what's in the minds of these filter designers sometime.

If you contact WIX or whoever, I'd be interested in hearing their inputs on this one.
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#1411482 - 03/22/09 06:46 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: SuperBusa]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1454
Loc: Midwest
If anyones wants to see where I drew these specs from PM me an email addr and I can email the PDF file that has this info in it.
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#1411488 - 03/22/09 06:57 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: LoneRanger]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1454
Loc: Midwest
To add another dimension to the OE filter vs Wix 51365 comparison as has surfaced in this discussion, here is a picture of a new unused Wix 51365's filter element compared to a used Subaru blue OEM (Honeywell) filter element after both cans were cut open (w/a hack saw-- kind of sloppy but it worked... chewed up the Honeywell's end cap a bit):



As can be seen, the OE filter appears to feature more media. which only seems to hurt the case against using the Wix in this car even more as smaller media area = higher PSID but with a bypass setting almost 1/3 the strength of the OE spec.
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#1411514 - 03/22/09 07:25 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: LoneRanger]
rcy Offline


Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 1557
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
 Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
LoneRanger - are there any filter manufactures (such as WIX, K&N, M1, etc) that actually have a filter specified for your Subaru? If so, then I would certainly think that they know it has a high volume oiling system and have designed the filter accordingly. If they made a filter, it certainly wouldn't hurt to contact their Engineering Tech Dept to get their inputs to your concern.


Wix filter for my car is 51365 with bypass rated at 8-11psi, plus it appears to be a universal filter hence the lawn tractors and outboard marine motors it also is purported to fit:

http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/ResultsPart.asp?PartNo=51365

Click the part number for a pop-up with specs and fitment for the filter.

I removed the Wix 51365 this past week after this discussion made me increasingly uncomfortable with the low bypass setting.

I now have one of the OE Subaru filters on again, the Honeywell made blue ones-- local dealer sells them for $6... cheap compared to what other Subaru dealers are charging for them. Filter changes are mess-free and super easy on this car.



I did the same thing on my 2001 H6 which also needs a filter with the 23psi bypass(when I'm at my desktop, I'll post the specs for the oil pump/filter for that car - I have the service manual pdf on that computer). The car has a 6 litre oil capacity.

I had been using a Wix filter on my car as well, but switched back to the Canadian Subaru filter (when you say Honeywell, you really mean FRAM right - you just can't bring yourself to type that four letter word haha).

Speaking of filters for Subaru's - I replaced the tranny filter (which is a spin-on) with a Wix as well. I see the bypass on the Wix tranny filter is also 8-11psi. I wonder if I should switch this filter back to Subaru? One big difference is that on the Subaru tranny filter, there is a fine metal mesh screen AFTER the bypass filter. I assume this is to catch any larger debris that might blow out when the filter goes into bypass mode. I would hazard a guess that this filter is also a FRAM.


Edited by rcy (03/22/09 07:27 PM)

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#1411519 - 03/22/09 07:36 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
it's the VOLUME that's going to make or break this whole discussion.


Naturally. It's the only thing to leave out

 Quote:
It's the volume in question that makes this situation different than in most cars on the road.


Yes. So do you now concede to things that you've been avoiding like the plague?

Let's "qualify" your statements. It's ONLY in this or like situations that a filter has any merit in terms of resistance or restriction, correct??


the rest was a waste of typing. Captain Obvious to my rescue.


Except maybe this:

 Quote:
That's why Subaru has specified a 23 psi filter bypass setting (at least on their specific OEM filter), so that they ensure the bypass doesn't open when it shouldn't.



Cold start relief events: MANY

5000rpm 12.4gpm events: FEW

Likely duration of dwell time in bypass

Cold start relief events: MANY

5000 rpm 12.4 gpm events: FEW

Likely sensible benefit to a high bypass valve setting????
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#1411539 - 03/22/09 07:57 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: LoneRanger]
rcy Offline


Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 1557
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Here are the specs for a 2001 H6. Even back then a 23psi bypass was spec'd

[img][/img]


Edited by rcy (03/22/09 08:04 PM)

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#1411567 - 03/22/09 08:46 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: Gary Allan]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
 Quote:
it's the VOLUME that's going to make or break this whole discussion.


Naturally. It's the only thing to leave out

 Quote:
It's the volume in question that makes this situation different than in most cars on the road.


Yes. So do you now concede to things that you've been avoiding like the plague?


I've said that from the first few posts in this thread. It's not a matter of me "condeding", but more of a matter of your reading comprehension.

 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Let's "qualify" your statements. It's ONLY in this or like situations that a filter has any merit in terms of resistance or restriction, correct??


the rest was a waste of typing. Captain Obvious to my rescue.


Huh ... agian, you're just realizing this? Where have you been? Please, go back and read this thread about 3 times ... it might sink in then. I've qualified my disussion in this thread in every manner possible. Let me say it one more time ... it's all a matter of flow VOLUME in this case. More flow VOLUME means more filter PSID, which means the filter bypass needs to be set higher accordingly for all possible use senarios ... including cold starts and running the engine during oil warm up period.


 Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Except maybe this:

 Quote:
That's why Subaru has specified a 23 psi filter bypass setting (at least on their specific OEM filter), so that they ensure the bypass doesn't open when it shouldn't.



Cold start relief events: MANY

5000rpm 12.4gpm events: FEW

Likely duration of dwell time in bypass

Cold start relief events: MANY

5000 rpm 12.4 gpm events: FEW

Likely sensible benefit to a high bypass valve setting????



Actually, it would NOT flow 12.4 gpm when the oil is cold ... I thought we already established this point. Every thing you've parroted has already been painstakingly explained (for your benefit – or was it to give you a reason to counter argue every point) in my previous posts.

The fact still remains that Subaru has set the filter bypass to 23 psi for a specific reason ... not just to be different from everyone else. The reason is because of the high volume oil pump and the free flowing oil system on this engine. I've explained it every which way I can ... anything else is a waste of time.

So, it sounds like your suggestion is to put whatever oil filter on this car and not worry about it? … that seems kind of careless to me.

If it was my car, I’d run the OEM filter. I’d contact the Engineering Dept of anyone who actually lists a filter for this specific car and ask them to prove to me that they have accounted for the high oil pump volume on this application. Otherwise, I’d be leery of just throwing any oil filter on it.

Either that, or just don't rev the engine much until the oil is pretty hot ... but who want's to screw with that all the time?
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#1411579 - 03/22/09 09:01 PM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Byp [Re: LoneRanger]
SuperBusa Offline


Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2371
Loc: WA
 Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
To add another dimension to the OE filter vs Wix 51365 comparison as has surfaced in this discussion, here is a picture of a new unused Wix 51365's filter element compared to a used Subaru blue OEM (Honeywell) filter element after both cans were cut open (w/a hack saw-- kind of sloppy but it worked... chewed up the Honeywell's end cap a bit):



As can be seen, the OE filter appears to feature more media. which only seems to hurt the case against using the Wix in this car even more as smaller media area = higher PSID but with a bypass setting almost 1/3 the strength of the OE spec.


I've seen filters on 600cc motorcycles bigger than that! There might be a slight illusion here though ... I'd bet the metal end caps only cut some of the effective filer area; less than what it appears like.

So I take it you can't use the 51356 which has the same filter specs, but about 1" longer? Of course the bypass is still 8-11 psi on that one, so I'd still be leary until further info could be obtained from WIX.
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#1411802 - 03/23/09 03:27 AM Re: Subaru Oil Pump Specs as Relates to Filter Bypass [Re: SuperBusa]
Gary Allan Offline


Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 39806
Loc: Pottstown, PA
 Quote:
So, it sounds like your suggestion is to put whatever oil filter on this car and not worry about it? … that seems kind of careless to me.


I dunno. Maybe "I" wouldn't worry about it. Then again, I use 0w-10 oil, so what do I know

You're just getting fall out from our last slug fest, that's all. In evaporators, it's called "carry over".

 Quote:
Actually, it would NOT flow 12.4 gpm when the oil is cold


Let's read this again ...for clarity ...

Cold start relief events: MANY

5000rpm 12.4gpm events: FEW

Likely duration of dwell time in bypass

Cold start relief events: MANY


I don't see any reference to 12.4gpm of cold flowing oil, just cold start events. Do you really see it (imagine a piece of paper that I flip over and examine both sides ..several times ..and blink as though to clear my eyes)
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