Flat Tappet Engine Oil

[fraso]

I've been reading Corvair Oil Article by Richard Widman and I see that he recommends using CI-4 diesel oils because they contain sufficiently high levels of ZDDP to protect older flat tappet engines.

Having had a look at the specifications of many diesel oils, I see that they have both CJ-4 and CI-4 ratings. Using Valvoline’s Premium Blue Extreme Engine Oil as an example, they specify:

Originally Posted By: "Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme Product Specification"
In addition, the product meets API CJ-4, API CI-4 Plus, API CI-4, API CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, and CF / SM specifications.


When the oil has both CJ-4 and CI-4, does this mean that this oil protects flat tappets like a CI-4 but uses additives that don't foul catalytic converters or particulate traps?

 

[Jetronic]

no it doesn't...

key being that the oil is also SM rated.... SM (and SL) calls for a eduction of ZDDP for environmental purposes.

Find an oil that doesn't have an S rating...

Shell Rotella T comes higly recommended here. I *believe* Valvoline Maxlife has higher zddp levels aswell, but best to check this

 

[lonestar]

I have not done this myself buy I understand you can purchase ZDDP as an additive and add that to whatever oil you want to use. You can read about the additive at http://www.addplus.com

 

[Dave Sherman]

Valvoline VR1 oil has plenty of ZDDP too. I use it in my MG.

 

[Jim 5]

Esso XD-3 0w-30 full synthetic HDEO is approved for gas engines now (covers your catalytic concerns) and it would be hard to find a better oil on the planet.

I see you are in Ontario and you can therefore buy it at your local bulk esso dealer. They should be in the yellow pages.

 

[fraso]

I would rather not add additives to an oil and would prefer to use the oil as formulated by the manufacturer:
Originally Posted By: "Richard Widman"
Since the additives are polar, they fight for surface area. The addition of ZDDP usually results in reduced cleanliness, higher engine temperatures and more deposits. Some studies have shown that going past 1400 ppm of phosphorus will increase wear over the long term, and going above 2000 ppm will begin to break down iron and result in camshaft spalling.

and
Originally Posted By: "Richard Widman"
ZDDP, when burned, leaves deposits on pistons, heads, ring grooves, valves, etc. Tests show that oils with 1% sulfated ash leave 58% less deposits in the engine than oils with 1.45% sulfated ash. Every ounce of additive that you add increases the ash content.

and
Originally Posted By: "Richard Widman"
Forget aftermarket additives: As demonstrated earlier in this paper, when you buy a good oil, it has the proper compromise between cleanliness and anti-wear. With the right test equipment and conditions you might find a combination of ingredients that might reduce wear, but it will be at the expense of sludge and carbon. It will do you little good to reduce wear and rebuild the engine because it is fouled with carbon or the oil stops circulating because of the sludge.

Interestingly, this seems to be contradicted in an earlier topic about ZDP depletion and GM oil life monitor:
Originally Posted By: "bbobynski"
If the engine has flat followers then definitely use the EOS. The flat tappets can take all the anti-wear additive you can throw at them...and the distributor gear in those types of engines tends to get heavily loaded due to high oil pump loads from high volume pumps and high RPM. If it is a new, green engine, install the distributor gear with a liberal dose of a good, heavy duty moly prelube grease to help it break in. It is is a roller cam engine the EOS is probably not as critical but still prelube the distributor gear the same way.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
no it doesn't...

key being that the oil is also SM rated.... SM (and SL) calls for a eduction of ZDDP for environmental purposes.

Find an oil that doesn't have an S rating...

Shell Rotella T comes higly recommended here. I *believe* Valvoline Maxlife has higher zddp levels aswell, but best to check this


This is incorrect. SM does not reduce zinc and phosphorous. It's ILLSAC GF-4 that does.

CJ-4 SM still has roughly twice the zinc that ILLSAC GF-4 starburst oils have.

CJ-4 also limits ash at 1% for new clean burning diesel emissions standards. Any CJ-4 rated heavy duty engine oil would be great for an older solid lifter valvetrained engine.

Valvoline VR-1 would also work nicely.

At least here in the States, Maxlife is API SM and meets IILSAC emissions standards (not fuel economy standards, so no starburst on the label). So it has ILLSAC GF-4 reduced levels of zinc/phosphorous.

 

[txrhino]

I am using Valvoline VR1 in my 67 mustang (flat tappet), I may switch to Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel once I get a few miles on it, it runs around 1200 - 1400 ppm

 

[KA426]

I'd recommend http://www.bradpennracing.com/ oil first and Valvoline VR-1 second.

 

[FastSUV]

I need to know what kind of engine and how many miles are on it first...

without knowing that I can't say for sure, but a stab in the dark (assuming it is not HM motor), would be to run the Mystik 10w30 syn-blend. It has all the good stuff in it as far as additive pkg goes but is still okay for gasoline engines.

 

[mechtech2]

Your tappet worries are primarily for break in, and for performance type cams and springs.

 

[fraso]

Although the 225 slant six in my 65 Barracuda has a high lift cam and 340 valve springs, I'm not too worried about which oil to use in it. Since I bought it used in 1983, my guess is that it has about 185,000 miles (285,000?) on it now. It burns about 1 litre every 1000 miles. Seeing as I've already had this car for over 25 years, I don't mind spending a bit more on better oil.

Actually, my main interest in this information is because I am planning to write an article about motor oils for the Antique & Classic Club of Canada. I'm sure that many of ACCCC's members would also be interested in the best motor oil for their vehicles but would have a great deal of trouble finding (never mind understanding) the Widman Corvair paper.

 

[TallPaul]

Here is smething easy to understand: Valvoline article on ZDDP

 

[fraso]

Widman clearly believes that CI-4/SL oils are superior to CJ-4/SM oils in flat tappet engines. He also suggests that quality of the base stock must also be considered in addition overall amount of additives:

Originally Posted By: "Widman"
Before we get into detail on additives it is important to understand that the quality of the base oil affects the performance of the oil so much that in general a Group II oil will have better performance with 10% less additives than a Group I oil. This means that looking at an oil analysis report and trying to judge quality by the quantity of additives does not work. The formulation of a high quality oil that optimizes cleanliness and wear is a science that has taken many years and tests to determine.


Originally Posted By: "Widman"
Understanding the label on the oil is not easy. Oils that are xW-30 and thinner can be rated SM and must have between 600 ppm and 800 ppm of phosphorous. They can also be rated SL and have up to 1000 ppm of phosphorous. But if there is a CI-4 in front of the SL (CI-4/SL) there is no limit on the amount of phosphorous, and a fully formulated CI-4 oil made with synthetic or group II+ base stock will typically only have about 1350 ppm of zinc and 1200 ppm or so of phosphorous. With a better the base stock, less additives are required for the same performance, and the API classification is based on performance, not additive content. If there is a CJ-4 in front of the SL or SM, it is limited to 1200 ppm of phosphorous.


With respect to the Valvoline article referenced above:

Originally Posted By: "Valvoline"
The current API standard is “SM,” which replaced the previous “SL” classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle’s emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current engine oil. Many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts believe the lower levels of zinc in “SM” engine oil is causing excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat tappet engines. This is despite the fact that all new engine oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible. This has resulted in the widely accepted belief that modern engine oil is not adequate to protect older engines.

The confusion for me has to with what "backward compatible" really means.

In the Valvoline article above, they go on to describe their VR1 Racing Oil and SynPower products as solutions to consumers' concerns about reduced ZDDP. Do these products resolve an actual wear issue or just the consumer concern about a non-issue?

 

[FrankN4]

If someone here with better search skills(that is probably everyone that can read) than myself, especially in knowing what questions to ask, there was an interesting article about motorcycle oils in 1992. I know 1992 is correct because I bought a 1992 Honda and this article was in the service department of the dealer.

The gist was over ZDDP in motorcycle oils. To SUPPOSEDLY prove a point, two identical 4 cyl, air cooled, Suzuki motorcycles were broken in for 1200 miles with "break in oil" whatever that is. The oil company then made up a batch of oil with no ZDDP, but a heavy FM package. The other had something like 1600 ZDDP and a "normal" FM package. The two bikes were then ridden by various people in the oil company, different riders, different styles, switched back and forth between bikes. After so many miles, I think about 25,000, the engines were torn down. The difference in wear was considered to be no more than the difference in the individual parts and assembly. The oils used were 20W-50 di-ester, (I think that is correct), base. The oil company was trying to point out that the only time ZDDP was needed was when the base oil had failed. Their oil was of such high quality that it did not fail. Kinda reminded me of the infomercial for the snake oil where the two buxom babes drove a small car across country, or something, after the oil had been drained.

 

[ikeepmychevytoo]

The inter-planar speed on the cams are so steeply accelerating that some motion of the rollers is still sliding. When sliding, the contact patch and the film vavefront of the small rollers are not at the advantage over flat tappets. Given these, newer formulas shall not completely give up sliding protection.

It is not my primary worry for an older engine with top speeds at 4800 rpms, non OHC, potentially softer springing, hydraulic lifters and did OK with API SF 20W-20 oils at the time.

I think this issue originally raised by the solid lifter owners where some potential hittting could occur.

 

[fraso]

I see that Valvoline VR1 has reduced detergency as it is designed for racing engines. Valvoline recommends a 3 month / 3000 mile OCI for this oil (Diesel oil in gas engine reply - long).

I see that Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 and ESSO XD-3 Extra 0W-40 are both rated CI-4/SL and on the shelf at Walmart.

Dr. Ali E. Haas on the FerrariChat.com forum makes a good argument for using thin oils in street engines:
Motor Oil Basics