Saturn SL2 Oil Advice

[fraso]

Hello Everyone,

Let me start off by saying that I've lurked for several years and thoroughly enjoy this site. I decided to join now to ask for some advice about a pair Saturn SL2s (1998 and 2001) that my parents own.

They bought these cars brand new and have regularly serviced both at the local Saturn dealer. The 1998 SL2 has about 164,000 km while the 2001 SL2 has about 97,000 km. Looking over their service records, there are some items (like frequent crankcase flushes) that I found questionable. Now that I've done a bit of research, I've learned that 1.9L DOHC engine is sometimes prone to timing chain failure due to a poor tensioner design. It also seems to be prone to high oil consumption due to poor ring (or ring groove) design.

Hard carbon deposits in the grooves (especially the oil ring?) seems to be main cause of the high oil consumption and I suspect that the crankcase flushes were to help keep the rings clean. I am curious to know what causes the rings to become sticky.

Would the use of a good quality synthetic oil (like Mobil 1?):

• be more resistant to leaving ring deposits?
• slowly remove any existing ring deposits?
• help to extend the life of the timing chain and tensioner?
• allow a normal service OCI of 10,000 km (rather than severe service 5,000 km OCI)?

Neither car seems to consume very much oil yet and I am trying to come up with a maintenance plan to save them some money in the long run. I just had a local garage put their standard QS HorsePower synthetic oil in the 2001 SL2 but I'm not sure how good a job this oil will likely do in keeping the rings clean.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[cronk]

Most of the timing chain issues are due to lack of maintenance .
The tensioners are hydraulic and work off oil pressure, if you don't change the oil often enough, they will get sludge in them and won't maintain pressure. Keep up on the oil changes and the tensioners should be fine.
On the rings, Saturns used low tension rings and were prone to some oil consumption, my 99 SL2 has 110k and has used 1 qt every 3k. It has done this since we bought it with 65k.
I believe the synthetics help keep an engine clean, I use Valvoline synpower in mine, it has worked well and kept the engine clean. If you are concerned you could try some Auto-rx, some folks on here have had good luck with it cleaning the ring grooves.
Personally, I think if you just keep up good maintenance, you should be fine.

 

[Intrinsic]

Hi frasco, welcome to the board!

What kind of budget would you like to work within? If you are looking for something readily availible with a bit of cleaning power, I suggest you look at Mobil 1 High Mileage.

If price is of little concern, and I may get flamed for this, but I would suggest Royal Purple, specifically for the focus on piston ring wear. One of their claims to fame is the use of an extreme pressure additive(Synerlec) to enhance ring sealing and wear.

 

[cp3]

I'm now over 370000km on my 94 SC1. It's lived on conventional with a 5000km OCI.

 

[eljefino]

I have or have had a dozen s-cars and done ring jobs and timing chains in several.

The tensioner has a teeny tiny orifice that clogs with junk. Any quality oil will keep this clean, M1 5w30 should flow nicely through that hole.

The caky ring deposits are like glassy creosote you'd find in a chimney, I can't imagine any liquid dissolving it.

If you do find yourself burning oil it will impact your driveability, as these cars wring the most out of 87 octane and the oil mixing in cuts that and cuts timing. You could run high-test or run thicker oil... For me diesel 15w40 really cut the bogging on takeoff after sitting idling at a red light in summer.

You can also intervene on the cooling fan with a manual switch to make things run at 195'F thermostat temp instead of 221'F radiator fan temp in the summer. This is a difference in absolute viscosity between a 30 and 40 weight.

Part of the ring issue is the metal of the OE rings just isn't that springy (for fuel economy), replacement rings are made that are stiffer.

Also if you do your own changes the motorcraft FL400s/ Fram # 3600* is a longer filter that you can find easier and just might filter better too. As for a filter for a 95 ford taurus base motor.

* don't get the fram, but it's a good cross reference

 

[The Critic]

I too, have a '96 Saturn SL2 with 125,000 miles.

Mine burns about a quart every 3000 miles with mixed driving, and has done so since new. I use the cheapest 5W30 that I can find, and I change my oil about every 7-8k miles.

I did an Auto-RX treatment, but it did not make any difference. As long as you keep the oil topped up, the tensioner should not give you any problems. These engines last a very long time as long as you keep the oil topped off. I try not to let mine get more than 1/2 qt low.

These cars will last a very long time as long as you stay up-to-date with maintenance. A lot of the wear components don't last very long (alternator, suspension, transmission valve body, etc), but these cars are cheap to maintain as long as you do the work yourself.

 

[GMFan]

I'm one of the lucky ones...my 2001 SL1 (SOHC) barely uses any oil.

 

[MONKEYMAN]

Originally Posted By: GMFan
I'm one of the lucky ones...my 2001 SL1 (SOHC) barely uses any oil.


You have the updated pistons and head where I think they tried to address the oil consumption problem with some success. Created other problems like intake leaking when they went to the plastic intake, but that is another topic.

I have used Auto-RX 3 times, used synthetic oil (Mobil 1), use Lube Control inbetween Auto-RX, and FP60 or FP3000 every fill up. Oil consumption keeps increasing. Currently over 1 quart per 1,000 miles. I bought the car at 71,000 and have put that much on the car. It was abused. There is still a burnt in mark below the add 1 quart mark on the dipstick. Here is what I know:

Oil consumption is mostly attributed to rings, but can be valve guide seals. The main things is changing the oil and using a quality filter. PAO Synthetic has been recommended to keep the rings from gumming up. Quality oil filter like Mobil 1, etc may help keep things cleaner. I have about 4 years of oil I bought on sale from Synthetic to conventional. Does not matter what oil I use, I still burn the same amount. My compression is good and the car runs great. It seems what you are doing has been working. I would continue that, but a PAO oil is what many Saturn Fans use after a rebuild once they see how bad the oil control rings look. Here is one of my favorite threads explaining the ring problem:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118258&highlight=saturns+burn+oil

Also, I had a gummed up valve body and reverse slam. I highly recommend Mobi1 1 transmission fluid. It has not returned since running some cleaner through my transmission and using Mobil 1.

 

[fraso]

Thanks for all the quick replies.

First off, my parents are in their 70s and retired so they are trying to stretch their pensions as far as possible. A bulk PetroCanada 5W-30 oil change at the Saturn dealer around here runs $34.95, while Mobil 1 synthetic OC runs ~$90. The QS HorsePower LOF cost less than $80 and included Saturn's extra cost inspections. Since their cars are both running quite well right now, I thought I would try to keep their maintenance costs from increasing too much. That was why I was thinking about switching to a synthetic oil and using the normal service OCI rather than the severe service OCI.

The dealer has performed crankcase flushes (which they call Emissions Service) lately on both cars about 15,000 km apart. They tell me that they use a Performa Lubricants 3-part system (could not tell me PN) that involves dumping a chemical into the oil, running it for 20-30 minutes and then changing the oil & filter. They put the 2nd chemical in the fresh oil and the 3rd into the gas tank. The Performa site doesn't mention this system so I'm not sure what they are actually using. Interestingly, they never heard of Auto-Rx.

Thanks for the link to the Why do saturns burn oil? thread on the Saturnfans forum. I was on there already but must have missed that one. I see that they recommend using a full synthetic oil to combat carbon build-up in the ring grooves and confirms what I suspected. However, I didn't see any mention of PAO synthetics.

The M1 SuperSyn Ad I came across on an earlier topic (Interesting Mobil 1 Data Flyer) seemed to indicate that this oil would remove deposits from an engine. Pennzoil Platinum seems to be a favorite on this forum and its marketing shows it as being great at removing sludge. However, I don't believe that the carbon in the ring grooves could be considered sludge. The M1 ad specifically states that it prevents ring sticking and piston deposits.

I figured that a synthetic's higher flash point and resistance to oxidation would definitely help reduce future oil consumption by keeping the grooves clean. Will Group III synthetics (like QS HorsePower/Ultimate Durability or Pennzoil Platinum) work as well as Group IV/V synthetics in this regard?

The 2001 SL2 is also coming up for transmission service soon (100k km) but I'm not aware of a reverse slam issue. I was planning to discuss roll pin retention with the tranny shop.

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Originally Posted By: fraso
It also seems to be prone to high oil consumption due to poor ring (or ring groove) design.



Your questions are very good ones!

I strongly suggest Auto-Rx, then use LC (Lube Control) to keep the rings clean. You can only do so much as the design isn't the best, but you can keep them continually clean with this regimen. LC is cheap over the long haul and keeps the engine clean as you drive it. Simple, cheap, easy.

I don't find any evidence that M1 will be better than Pennzoil dino (or the QS synth you spec'd) for a 10,000KM run when using LC. UOA - Pennzoil 5w-20, 7300 miles

LC isn't worth it for many well designed engines (Honda's 4cyl's come to mind) but for the Saturn 1.9L offering, it's a huge plus.

 

[Johnny]

The Petro Canada is a fine oil and I would have absolutely no problem using it. I would be more concerned/interested in finding out exactly what chemicals they were using to flush the engine, and especially what chemical they were using to add to the new oil.

Thank you for looking out for your parents. So many do not.

to BITOG

 

[mechtech2]

Saturns historically are hard on timing chains, and burn oil.
I consider them the worst of semi modern cars, engine wise.
It is a shame, because it taints the otherwise good cars.

 

[addyguy]

As Johnny said, Petro-Canada makes really, really good quality oils. Their conventional oils are actually a blend of group II and III base oils (as stated on their website), so they are technically a syn-blend.

I ran a fill of bulk PC 5W-30 in my 02 Cavalier, and got the lowest oil consumption I ever have, with any oil. If your folks are comfortable with the service they get at the Saturn dealership, I'd just keep going with that.

 

[oilyriser]

I met a guy who used Mobil 1 every 7500 miles in his sc1, and he said there was zero varnish inside when he replaced a rocker arm at around 180,000 miles. It did not consume much oil, either.

 

[fraso]

Although I don't have any experience with UOA, it looks to me that 10,000 km (6214 miles) could be safely achieved with a synthetic oil (without LC) in mixed driving. Unless I'm mistaken, a UOA doesn't give any indication of what is happening in the oil ring grooves.

As for the "Emission Service" chemicals, I'm concerned about them too and have my doubts that they are effective in combating ring carbon. I had another look at the Performa site and it looks like they're using Performa Emission Cleaning Kit - PN PLI-123. My feeling is that this treatment was more of a profit center than a necessary service. Same goes for their 15,000 km Fuel System Service, which looks like might be with the Performa Fuel Injector Flush Kit. The 1998 SL2 got a FI flush @ 125,000 km while the 2001 got one @ 50,000 km (both in 2005).

 

[Johnny]

Well, since they are located in your part of the world, I would call them and ask the point blank about their products. Ask them to send you some independent lab results, not just testimonials.

PERFORMA LUBRICANTS INTERNATIONAL INC.
42 MONTROSE CRESCENT
WHITBY, ONTARIO L1R 1C5
TEL: 905-668-1440
FAX: 905-665-6118
1-800-808-3062

 

[bobfather99]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
I have or have had a dozen s-cars and done ring jobs and timing chains in several.

The tensioner has a teeny tiny orifice that clogs with junk. Any quality oil will keep this clean, M1 5w30 should flow nicely through that hole.

The caky ring deposits are like glassy creosote you'd find in a chimney, I can't imagine any liquid dissolving it.

If you do find yourself burning oil it will impact your driveability, as these cars wring the most out of 87 octane and the oil mixing in cuts that and cuts timing. You could run high-test or run thicker oil... For me diesel 15w40 really cut the bogging on takeoff after sitting idling at a red light in summer.

You can also intervene on the cooling fan with a manual switch to make things run at 195'F thermostat temp instead of 221'F radiator fan temp in the summer. This is a difference in absolute viscosity between a 30 and 40 weight.

Part of the ring issue is the metal of the OE rings just isn't that springy (for fuel economy), replacement rings are made that are stiffer.

Also if you do your own changes the motorcraft FL400s/ Fram # 3600* is a longer filter that you can find easier and just might filter better too. As for a filter for a 95 ford taurus base motor.

* don't get the fram, but it's a good cross reference


For the short time I had my 94 SL1(got wrecked while parked) I used Chevron Delo 15w40 summer and anything 10w30 winter.
I completely agree with whats been posted. Take care of the engine, the timing set will last a good long time.

Saturns do have a few quirks though, just like all cars, but IMHO its hard to beat a almost 40mpg car..

 

[MONKEYMAN]

Originally Posted By: ToyotaNSaturn
Originally Posted By: fraso
It also seems to be prone to high oil consumption due to poor ring (or ring groove) design.



Your questions are very good ones!

I strongly suggest Auto-Rx, then use LC (Lube Control) to keep the rings clean. You can only do so much as the design isn't the best, but you can keep them continually clean with this regimen. LC is cheap over the long haul and keeps the engine clean as you drive it. Simple, cheap, easy.

I don't find any evidence that M1 will be better than Pennzoil dino (or the QS synth you spec'd) for a 10,000KM run when using LC. UOA - Pennzoil 5w-20, 7300 miles

LC isn't worth it for many well designed engines (Honda's 4cyl's come to mind) but for the Saturn 1.9L offering, it's a huge plus.


Guess who convinced my to use Auto-RX and Lube Control. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

When I first came to SaturnFansForums Mobil oil was highly recommended. I tried it and my oil consumption doubled after that. Not sure that was the reason, but now I just put whatever synthetic oil is on sale in each winter and summer.

 

[fraso]

I called up the Performa Lubricants office and I was directed to call their local sales rep. The sales rep told me that they only sell to garages. They don't have any lab data but instead rely on a demonstration to the shop mechanics to promote this product.

I also emailed the company yesterday and the receptionist I spoke with today told me that the president would likely reply when he returns to the office tomorrow.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: fraso
I was planning to discuss roll pin retention with the tranny shop.


Requires disassembly of the differential unit, tons of $$$. Just don't spin the tires hard on snow.

Your suspicions of the three part service are mostly on par. At a minimum your folks could dump in a liter of *whatever* in the oil before driving in for a change, and another in the gas tank. There are likely kickbacks from the snake oil dealer to the stealership. They don't want to bother with auto rx b/c they don't want to make you feel like you have to return later for a flush etc... they want you to feel like when you leave that day you're "all set".

PS auto rx did absolutely nothing for my SOHC 1.9, I tried it before my ring job.