Redline 5W40 08' VW GTI 2.0 FSI 4000 mile OCI

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saaber1

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Hello, Here are the details about this oil run:

My usage on this car has changed, type of driving was:

1) 90% city, most trips are about 1-2 miles, with engine never reaching operating temp.
2) 5% "hooliganism", curvy road driving with lots of WOT and mostly redline shifts, 0-60 runs, 1/4 mile runs, 100-130mph cruise
3) 5% normal highway driving

- 9000 miles on car
- Sampling method was blackst. pump through dipstick
- I changed at 4k due to wanting to try valve cleaning procedure and then change oil after that. See here for valve cleaning method: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1378965#Post1378965 (valve cleaning was done after oil was sampled) Also I was concerned about waiting until 5k on oil (as vw recommends in manual) due to severe service.
- I pasted in the VOA for reference.
- Also I did TAN this time because I am planning on changing the PCV system to a catch can and/or atmospheric (possibly with vacuum assist) system and I wanted to see what acids might build up with that new PCV system. Thanks to everyone who recommended getting TAN done on earlier post!
- Lowest temp here was probably about 10-15 degrees this winter
- One bottle of Techron added at about 2800 miles on oil

All comments wlecome! Thanks!

redline3.jpg
 
Nice report for a new 2.0 FSI. Break in metals are trending down nicely and strong tbn. If you stick with the same oil you should have no problems extending your oci, assuming you want to. Good job keeping the valve deposits in check.

This is a perfect example of an engine that should last a long long time if maintained by a bitoger and not so long if maintained by your average joe. Good job!
 
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Wow, major fuel dilution. Look at the viscosity drop and the Manganese numbers.


I agree, I was expecting a drop in flash point but there isn't that much drop and I expected a smaller drop in viscosity. This is the most I have seen redline 5w40 drop in viscosity.

I am beginning to think that the drop in flashpoint we have seen in other UOAs is more an indicator of how much fuel is in the sample at the time (i.e. fuel that did not burn off prior to sampling) vs. how much the oil has been fuel-diluted overall. Or is this just a redline specific trait, I mean not to have a drop in flashpoint but have other evidence of fuel dilution? Or am I way off base here?

It is really a good test for how redline 5W40 deals with fuel dilution I think because of the use (winter cold = more pcv contaminants plus more idling, and most important, use was almost all short trips). The short trips + hard driving really make this "severe service".

I don't think it is a good test in terms of wear metals yet because it is first run of redline and engine is still breaking in.

I believe the fuel dilution is not showing up as "fuel" in both this run and the previous factory fill UOAs because I run it on the highway for a long while before taking a sample and it probably all burned off. Also if anyone is curious, please note that factory fill run was not short trips, I have to go back and check but maybe 50/50 city highway (I have to check) but nowhere near 90% city.
 
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Originally Posted By: saaber1
..............................

I believe the fuel dilution is not showing up as "fuel" in both this run and the previous factory fill UOAs because I run it on the highway for a long while before taking a sample and it probably all burned off. ............


Actually, all the fuel never burns off, only the lighter fractions burn off.
 
Do you think the Blackstone method is the reason that "fuel" doesn't show up vs. say Terry's method? Sorry to not reference the methods here as I don't remember their names.
 
Originally Posted By: saaber1
Do you think the Blackstone method is the reason that "fuel" doesn't show up vs. say Terry's method? Sorry to not reference the methods here as I don't remember their names.


Yes, Blackstone uses an open cup method, which seems to be less sensitive. Some other labs use the closed cup method, which is less prone to error.
 
Conventional wisdom is that when TAN equals or exceeds TBN the oil has reached it's useful life. This oil in this vehicle is not a candidate for extending the OCI. It didn't make it to 4K.

Ed
 
TAN is surprisingly high. I doubt it's causing corrosion but it's hard to tell with the elevated wear metals from break-in. Later on this can be evaluated.

Factory fill had a lot of Manganese so some in this fill is certainly carryover. I'd bet it would have been 0 or 1 otherwise.

TBN retention appears similar to the factory fill after accounting for the difference in OCI.

Flashpoint surprisingly high.

Viscosity loss is surprisingly high. I think it was said by Dave at Red Line that this formulation has polymeric VIIs. If we could see a different UOA with this same formulation we could get a better idea of how much the viscosity loss here is from mechanical shearing and how much is from fuel and water dilution. I think shanneba has recently posted a UOA of this oil from his BMW. Yeah, here RL 5W-40 UOA. Flashpoint was 440F and viscosity was ~14 cst. The engine was used in mostly highway trips, so good boiling off of fuel and water. Both viscosity and flashpoint are higher than yours. Even with low contamination, the viscosity did drop quite a bit from virgin viscosity.

So I think this oil does mechanically shear somewhat and your large viscosity loss was a combination of significant dilution and significant, but to a lesser extent, from mech. shearing.

Consider an oil pan heater. I put one on my VW. It can't hurt! Also, I look forward to hearing later about your planned crankcase ventilation project.
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Conventional wisdom is that when TAN equals or exceeds TBN the oil has reached it's useful life. This oil in this vehicle is not a candidate for extending the OCI. It didn't make it to 4K.

Ed

Yeah, that is the rule that some people use. It is one of those that I'd call "too simple to be really useful", kind of like "change oil at Xk miles". What matters is that corrosion doesn't significantly increase and that doesn't follow that rule very well. It depends on the oil's formulation (base oil types used and the additive package) and probably the engine type. It's not a bad rule, just can often be too conservative, IMO, especially with ester-based oils.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Yeah, that is the rule that some people use. It is one of those that I'd call "too simple to be really useful", kind of like "change oil at Xk miles". What matters is that corrosion doesn't significantly increase and that doesn't follow that rule very well. It depends on the oil's formulation (base oil types used and the additive package) and probably the engine type. It's not a bad rule, just can often be too conservative, IMO, especially with ester-based oils.


I don't know enough about it, but I don't buy that TBN=TAN rule for this oil. There were several posts by Terry Dyson saying to use 0 as a cutoff for TBN from Blackstone:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post242361

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post236974

And this sample had a much higher TBN than that. Do we have any other TANs or information about TAN and Redline to know if that TAN=TBN rule applies? It seems to me if a TBN of 0 is ok for this oil (which is unusual) then it does have some sort of different set of rules. I don't know what those rules are but it appears it may not be smart to apply the TAN=TBN with this oil.

For me I am mainly interested in the loss of viscosity and I put less weight on the TAN figure but that is from my ignorance. I do know enough that you have to be careful when applying rules of thumb to this type of oil (as JAG said) Does anyone know anything about TAN as it relates to ester based oils?
 
Originally Posted By: zoomzoom
I think you would be better off running redline 5/10W-30..those two will be much more shear stable..or even try GC?

I have been looking at a lot of the 2.0 FSI UOAs and this engine beats the heck out of oils. Viscosities drop like crazy and flashpoints are really low. The last couple I looked at were like 330ish.

I might try to compile all the UOAs for this engine if I get some time next week and post them. Veedub started a spreadheet a while back on this.

Regarding the 5/10W30, I would be worried about the lower viscosity. The 5W40 starting at 15.1 and ending in 12.2 might be better than starting at 10.7 and ending at ??? Also the HTHS of 5/10W30 is 3.8 vs. 4.6 for 5W40. I do recognize however that the 5W40 has more VII's so maybe that is the reason it dropped in viscosity. I still don't understand why the flashpoint is so high.??

redline2.jpg


Some other oils I would consider trying here would be Rotella synthetic 5W40, biosyn, and amsoil. But I would probably do as well to stick with the RL 5W40 for a while as it cost me $7.49/qt at carquest which isn't bad and I would like to see wear metal numbers after break in etc. settles down.

I might do overkill TBN/TAN sampling to track the TAN on this oil. Don't know if it would be worth the cost but might be interesting.
 
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" I do recognize however that the 5W40 has more VII's so maybe that is the reason it dropped in viscosity."

BINGO, we have a winner :)

5/10w-30 wt redline or GC will protect your engine just fine and it will shear less..I would give it a try
 
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