Diesel Oil TBN Queston

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

FrankN4

Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,093
Location
Kentucky
I have noticed that the TBN of the newer diesel oils is often around 8 where it used to be 10-12. I am guessing the calcium has been lowered to reduce SA in the newer oils(CJ-4)

If this is correct, what add is used for the more stringent soot control/anti sludge?
 
Soot control comes from the dispersants. Sludge resistance comes from antioxidants.

The initial TBN isn't the most important number...how long the TBN lasts is most important. Better quality (costlier) detergent and dispersant additives hold their TBN value longer.
 
Also with the advent of ULSD, the main acid precursor, sulfur, is reduced hence the formation of acid has been reduced by a high degree and TBN can be reduced while maintaining service life of the oil even with EGR equipped diesels. One of the upsides of ULSD not often mentioned. Soot loading on non-EGR equipped diesels has also been noticed to be greatly reduced with the use of the new fuel. Leaves more room for other goodies in the oil and burns cleaner.
 
Hi,
FrankN4 - Much has already been said. Most heavy high speed diesel engine Manufactures have always preferred a TBN around 10 due to the increasing SA levels above that. (Some special application engines require a VOA TBN of 50 or so)

Low sulfur fuels and better Adds have changed the rules somewhat

Now, many Manufacturers state that a TBN of 1 (D2896) or 1/3rd of new oil is the lubricants limit of use (TBN parameter)

I always like to see the TAN too!
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2
The initial TBN isn't the most important number...how long the TBN lasts is most important. Better quality (costlier) detergent and dispersant additives hold their TBN value longer.


This is true, as far as it goes. I'd still like to use the oil that starts out with the higher TBN, all else being equal.
 
I have started with a TBN of 10 and had it only drop to 7.6 after 40,000 miles on a Cummins ISX using ULSD with a B10 blend. I agree that the ULSD has made quite a difference in how the TBN level drops compared to LSD and the old 5000ppm diesel fuel. I have no had data on it, but I think that ULSD has also helped reduce some EGR problems in diesel engines. I have run ULSD exclusively in my Cummins ISX since I got it and also my Jeep Liberty diesel and have not had any EGR problems that others have experience. Probably just luck of the draw.
 
Doesn't the quality of your engine oil also effect the EGR?

I would think more to it than luck of the draw. You probably ran good oil and changed it properly, as well as benefitting from the ULSD.
 
With the new CJ-4 oils you want to start watching it closer once the TBN drops to 50% of original. Many people seem to be running it down to a TBN of 2, but I certainly would look at more test data then just the TBN to run that low.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
FrankN4 - Much has already been said. Most heavy high speed diesel engine Manufactures have always preferred a TBN around 10 due to the increasing SA levels above that. (Some special application engines require a VOA TBN of 50 or so)

Low sulfur fuels and better Adds have changed the rules somewhat

Now, many Manufacturers state that a TBN of 1 (D2896) or 1/3rd of new oil is the lubricants limit of use (TBN parameter)

I always like to see the TAN too!


More people are running a TAN with the TBN and some companies are changing to just a TAN on the new CJ-4 Oils.
 
I have noticed that the TBN of the newer diesel oils is often around 8 where it used to be 10-12. I am guessing the calcium has been lowered to reduce SA in the newer oils(CJ-4)

yes you are correct as are all the posts above
 
Remember the new oils from Amsoil have raised the TBN for their CJ-4 rated oils. The old DEO 5W-40 used to be a TBN 8. It is now a TBN of 10.4. The brand new DME 15W-40 CJ-4 rated oil that they just came out with is also a TBN of 10.4. With the new formulation on the DEO and the new DME they also warranty them for 3x the OEM OCI up to 50k miles or 600 hours or 1 year. As with all warranties there is fine print but thats a pretty good OCI warranty for a CJ-4 rated oil.
 
---Not all sulfated ash is alike. They all produce the same weight of SA in the lab test, but ash from magnesium detergents is abrasive while the ash from calcium compounds is soft and much less abrasive.

---Amsoil's only CJ-4 rated oil is their PCO synthetic blend 15W-40. None of their other diesel engine oils are CJ-4 or any other licensed API Service Category. As such, they can blend just about anything they can market.
http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0995
 
Speaking of high TBN, one of my pop's buddies is a locomotive preventive maintenance tech. He swears by 15k OCIs on 20w-40, 17 TBN train oil. He now has 313,xxx on his 99 7.3L PSD, no injector, turbo, engine failure yet. He too runs baldwin cans with no bypass. I was thinking of taking him on previous offer to get me some of that oil for our 6.5L tow truck in TX. Could the train oil really be behind his sucess story? BTW don't mean to hi-jack the thread just commenting since TBN is the issue.
 
Originally Posted By: Ken2


---Amsoil's only CJ-4 rated oil is their PCO synthetic blend 15W-40. None of their other diesel engine oils are CJ-4 or any other licensed API Service Category. As such, they can blend just about anything they can market.
http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0995


Actually PCO is not CJ-4, it is CI-4 Plus. Be careful with that. And your implcation is misleading at best. I suppose they could do something like "blend just about anything they can market." but tell me, does Amsoil do that? With all the allegations people throw out, we don't see a lot of prosecutions and convictions. (as in none) If you have proof that DEO and DME are inferior or violate CJ-4 limits, post it up.
 
I suppose it might, but I disabled the EGR on my Cummins ISX, so not really an issue. I, and my bank account, like the 20% better mpg. One heck of a lot less soot in the oil and coming out the pipes. Engine runs way cooler, even with AC going on a hot day and a hard pull.

Originally Posted By: ChiTDI
Doesn't the quality of your engine oil also effect the EGR?

I would think more to it than luck of the draw. You probably ran good oil and changed it properly, as well as benefitting from the ULSD.
 
You will not see any reliability issues in disabling the EGR on your system...your lubricant will love you for it. The EGR and associated cooler were the weakest points of the ISX/ISM engineering platforms. SCR and EGR deletion will be an IS motors friend in the future as the OEM seeks to balance performance and environmental requirements. Heck the NOx emissions from some 1998 Cat engines I tested were already orders of magnitude lower than a typical passenger car...and there is no EGR! The bunny hugers need to focus on the real issues and not cripple the transportation industry.
 
I agree totally. Have had the EGR disabled for some time now and absolutely love the performance and mpg. But, boy, the amount of [censored] I get over having done it.... "you will ruin the engine" type of grief. When I did it, I also talked with Pittsburgh Power about it... they confirmed it was probably one of the best things I could have done. My dealer really doesn't care that I did it and just acts curious as to how it is working. Even when they put the engine on the computer to check something, they leave the EGR alone, knowing what I did. I got a solid 1 mpg better after doing it. Doesn't sound like much to most folks, but it equates to almost a 15-20% gain on a semi and about $8000 - $10000 a year in fuel savings. Plus the savings by being able to extend the oil drains a little longer.

Originally Posted By: pickled
You will not see any reliability issues in disabling the EGR on your system...your lubricant will love you for it. The EGR and associated cooler were the weakest points of the ISX/ISM engineering platforms. SCR and EGR deletion will be an IS motors friend in the future as the OEM seeks to balance performance and environmental requirements. Heck the NOx emissions from some 1998 Cat engines I tested were already orders of magnitude lower than a typical passenger car...and there is no EGR! The bunny hugers need to focus on the real issues and not cripple the transportation industry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Oil fan 47
Can I top off a diesel with gasoline oil?
2 3
Replies
42
Views
4K
Redhawk454
Saikou
Does a FULL SAPS oil create more soot in EGR and intake manifold?
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
Fishstyx
T
  • Sticky
Trying to find "The One" 15w40 oil to use across my whole fleet (pre-emission diesel and gas engines)
2
Replies
28
Views
11K
locomaster1969
W
Probably Overthinking
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
tnt_motorsports
J
Amsoil HD Diesel & Marine (AME),1995 Detroit 12.7L 60 series, 5,700 miles on oil
Replies
5
Views
196
fantastic
Back
Top