Is this guy really stating facts about POE's?

[tekmoe]

I posted on another message board stating I use redline 20w50 in my Harley. He comes back and says he used to/or currently does work for exxon/mobil. His response to my statement:

"Ester based products are chemically produced in a non-refining environment, thus depending on type can be cheaper to produce.

Because of their limited applications and market segment they can be dearer to buy.

The main problem with esters is that they are produced to do a certain job and have little or no tolerance for anything else. By that I mean in an automotive application if there was a problem with an engine (such as excess fuel or water ingress) the oil could not cope and would seperate causing damage to the inner components.

Their inability to be mixed with a mineral product is a major handicap in the automotive world because if you needed to top up with oil you could not mix them. It is also advisable to use a flushing agent when switching between the two products to limit contamination.

Their viscosity range is also limited compared to an advanced PAO based product, meaning they do not have the ability to operate on a very wide range of temperatures reliably.

All oils have their place in the market but some are better at doing a job than others.

The confusion with all this is not what is classed as a "Fully Synthetic" oil but what is classed as a "Semi Synthetic" as only a small amount of additives can classify an oil as such."

I am no oil expert, but I cannot imagine most of this being true. I have done some research on these forums thru previous posts, following a lot of on what Mula has said.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

 

[benjamming]

I had never heard that ester based oils are cheaper to produce. It's always been the opposite. Am I missing something?

I have read on here that Redline may not cope well with water so he may have hit on something here.

Not able to be mixed with dino oil? From Redline's website "A flush isn't necessary or advised, as Red Line's products are compatible and will mix with other synthetics and petroleum products."

Not able to operate on a wide range of temps? From Redline, "These synthetics have a natural multigrade property which allows our chemists to avoid bulking up an oil with unnecessary additive packages." Redline has a high VI thus eliminating the need for VII in most if not all formulations. Now the pour point is not as high as a typical PAO but the flashpoint is way on up there.

How did the issue of fully synthetic work it's way into his statements? I assume b/c ester based oils are Group V?

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by y_p_w:

Motul claims that their Gear 300 75W90 gear oil (which I use in my current car) will never shear out of grade. That could be possible if they don't use VI improvers.

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and this can be done blending other components besides ester base oils. Im sure that PAO can be blended to do this without VIIs.

JMH

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by JHZR2:

quote:

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Originally posted by y_p_w:

Motul claims that their Gear 300 75W90 gear oil (which I use in my current car) will never shear out of grade. That could be possible if they don't use VI improvers.

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and this can be done blending other components besides ester base oils. Im sure that PAO can be blended to do this without VIIs.

JMH

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I thought the traditional way of boosting the multigrade properties of PAO was to blend in esters. Mobil is allegedly using alkylated napthalene instead of esters now. PAO-only is supposed to be unacceptable, because something needs to be added to increase seal swell, and esters or AN happen to do the trick.

 

[tekmoe]

The main reason why I use Redline fluids in my Harley is because I believe in the product. The other reasons are: I live in Dallas, TX where it can easily reach 100 degrees on a daily basis in the summer time, I ride about 60-70% of the time throughout the year, and the other 30-40% driving my car, and the fact that Redline supposedly has a higher temperature rating before breaking down, I feel that is a huge plus for an air-cooled v-twin motorcycle.

I guess all I am trying to do is assure myself that this guy who is talking down on Redline, is really just spitting garbage out of his mouth because he prefers Mobil1. I have used Redline for years and I have never had a problem. I'd love to see what the engine looks like on the inside, as I poured Redline into the engine and tranny shortly after the break-in period, and have been using it ever since. I have almost 30k miles on my Harley, and it is nearly 4 years old.

Another thing I have noticed is the synthetic discussions can get very heated from time to time...Just want to let everyone know that I am not trying to start a flame war. I am only trying to gain more knowledge on a topic that I don't know much about.

Thank you.

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by tekmoe:
The main reason why I use Redline fluids in my Harley is because I believe in the product. The other reasons are: I live in Dallas, TX where it can easily reach 100 degrees on a daily basis in the summer time, I ride about 60-70% of the time throughout the year, and the other 30-40% driving my car, and the fact that Redline supposedly has a higher temperature rating before breaking down, I feel that is a huge plus for an air-cooled v-twin motorcycle.

I guess all I am trying to do is assure myself that this guy who is talking down on Redline, is really just spitting garbage out of his mouth because he prefers Mobil1. I have used Redline for years and I have never had a problem. I'd love to see what the engine looks like on the inside, as I poured Redline into the engine and tranny shortly after the break-in period, and have been using it ever since. I have almost 30k miles on my Harley, and it is nearly 4 years old.

Another thing I have noticed is the synthetic discussions can get very heated from time to time...Just want to let everyone know that I am not trying to start a flame war. I am only trying to gain more knowledge on a topic that I don't know much about.

Thank you.

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Perhaps ester-only oils such as Red Line have their advantages, but they may not be the right oil for every vehicle and/or driver. One reputed problem is the ability of esters to attract moisture, which may be a problem if one doesn't get the oil up to full operating temps on a regular basis. I'm still not convinced that 100% ester base oil won't cause excessive seal swell in an IC engine environment. There probably isn't any one solution that works best in all cases.

 

[TallPaul]

Tekmoe, I think you are wise to use Redline in your Harley. Keep on doing what you are doing.

The guy is totally off base. My understanding is that esters are expensive. I believe Redline has formulated their oil to handle the typical automobile and motorcycle issues such as water and fuel as well as any other motor oil out there. There is no problem mixing Redline with other motor oils. I often do it. Esters have a better viscosity range than other base oils which is why all but the 5w40 Redline have no added viscosity index improvers. The base oil itself simply is so good in this respect that it fits the multigrade criteria and yet is essentially a straight weight (best of both worlds). Especially with an air cooled engine (with no shrouded fan like a lawn mower has) Redline is the best bet as ester is the only hydrocarbon oil that can take the heat of jet turbine engines.

 

[Johnny]

I don't believe Redline is 100% ester based oil. Their street oils have even less ester product than their racing oils do. If you really want to see what a 100% ester based, jet approved oil will do, fill your crank case up with Mobil, Exxon, or Shell JET ENGINE OIL. When I was young I tried this because of the "if it's good enough for a jet engine, it's has to be good for my car" theory. Well, bad idea. Every where there was a seal or gasket leaked oil. Three oil changes later it spun two rod bearings. 100% ester based oils are not meant for long term use in a gasoline piston driven engine. What the follow said above has merrit.

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny:
I don't believe Redline is 100% ester based oil.

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I agree. I still say the best estimate is that Redline is about 50% ester since they told me the majority of their base oil is ester. A pure ester jet oil would not be made for an automobile engine crankcase anymore than a differential lube is. Maybe we are missing some of the context from which this fellow speaks, but even so, if he talks about a 100% ester jet oil, I do think he is wrong about the poor viscosity range (I am thinking temperature wise).

 

[JHZR2]

lol, yeah, a gas turbine spinning at 18k rpm and with a HUGE power density advantage is a WAY different animal both operationally and lubrication requirement-wise, as compared to the usual ho-hum IC engine.

JMH

 

[buster]

Like the other's said above, RL has PAO in it. Just a smaller pecentange. No worries. I used to think this way, about a 6 month ago, but am on the other side now. Until tomorrow...just kidding. Think about it though, if their was a problem, the way information is exchanged today via the internet, we'd hear tons of problems. I never heard one. Also dont' forget that Roy Howell worked at Lubrizol.

 

[boxcartommie22]

dave at redline says there is zero pao in their oils

 

[buster]

"dave at redline says there is zero pao in their oils"

Thats not what he told me.

 

[TallPaul]

If he works for Exxon/Mobil he must be the janitor.

 

[y_p_w]

I've certainly heard from one former Exxon chemist (wasn't a lubes guy though) that his opinion was that ester-only motor oils were unsuitable for IC engines. To me, the cost is the main prohibitive issue, and I'm not convinced that there's any performance advantage over a properly formulated PAO-based synthetic.

I have used ester-only gear lubes, including those from Red Line and Motul. A transaxle is a very different environment though.

 

[JHZR2]

I dont believe that one could actually make an ester only diff or gear lube. Apparently this is sort of marketing hype and crafty wordsmanship. perhaps those more knowledgable than I can chime in though.

As far as I can tell, the statements are right to a point. Look at it this way: if Auto-rx esters were good at lubricating, or redline esters were really good at cleaning, what would be the point? Im sure there would be at least to some extent marketing of these two products in both respective areas. Another example: Delvac 1300s at least used to have group I oil mixed in with the II/II+ for its abilities as far as cleaning go. So, whether its dino vs dino, ester vs ester, syn vs dino, etc., etc., youll find that certain substances have things that they excel at, and things that they arent so great at. And, as oils like schaeffers show, there are obviously points of diminishing returns, so that in reality, one can go with only a portion of a synthetic constituent or any substance that makes up a lube oil, and achieve great results. The key really does seem to be balance and design to as specific as possible an application, in order to be able to optimize results. How that is done, and what types of chemicals are used is the art, and is, surely, the reason also why most folks are on here: to dechipher the good and bad of all the wonderful variety of products out there, for what is best in THEIR application. Surely all products will work well in one place or another, whether its API SF supertech cheapo oil or the latest greatest ester formulation. They all have their relevance, their benefits, and, IMO one of the main engineering functions of actually designing a product, is to make tradeoffs that will benefit as many users as possible, while maintaining a certain subset of parameters. All this holds true in his statements, and he is just trying to be helpful, IMO.

I find a good deal of validity in his response, regardless of his agenda or affilitation or preference.

JMH

[ May 25, 2005, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: JHZR2 ]

 

[y_p_w]

quote:

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Originally posted by JHZR2:
I dont believe that one could actually make an ester only diff or gear lube. Apparently this is sort of marketing hype and crafty wordsmanship. perhaps those more knowledgable than I can chime in though.

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I'm curious as to why you think that can't be done. They probably blend different base oils, additives, and possibly VI improvers. 100% ester would only mean the base oil.

Motul claims that their Gear 300 75W90 gear oil (which I use in my current car) will never shear out of grade. That could be possible if they don't use VI improvers.

 

[Pontual]

Ok, but what if using just a 10% jet oil (100% POE) in a groupII to improve detergency? Seals won't suffer neither viscosity will be dramatically lowered, since I run 10w40 oils and majority like 0w20 oils.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Ok, but what if using just a 10% jet oil (100% POE) in a groupII to improve detergency? Seals won't suffer neither viscosity will be dramatically lowered, since I run 10w40 oils and majority like 0w20 oils.


You just revived a 10 year old thread..........

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
You just revived a 10 year old thread..........


I was 40 years old back then. I was in my Prime!