Knocking noise when cold, possibly tranny noise?

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frank83

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I have a knocking/tapping noise when my 06 corolla, with 50K miles when it is in drive or reverse with my foot on the brake when it is cold outside. It is quite loud. The noise does not happen while in park and neutral. When the car is warmed up it is fine, shifting is smooth. Auto tranny fluid (T-IV) is red and not burnt and at proper level.
Video/audio of the tapping: Knocking Sound

The knocking I describe is the most pronounced around 16 seconds left, but starts at 27 seconds left. I started my car on an 8 degree F day. It took an extra second to start and revved to 2K RPM, I waited a bit to put it in drive. I inched forward with my foot on the brake and the knocking started. If you listen closely, you can here the noise stop when I shift from drive to neutral and then to park. The knocking only happens when it is below 30 degrees outside on first startup. If I drive and then park it for 15 minutes or so it starts up fine without the knocking sound, no matter the temp. Is this "normal" when cold?

Thanks,
Frank
 
This may be a long shot but my guess is that when the engine moves there is stress on the exhaust flex coupling causing noise. I really didnt here anything that severe to worry too much about
 
My wife drives an 06 Corolla with 28k miles, and it's never made that noise, even when cold.

You ask if this is normal when cold. Definitely not normal.

You say the ATF is in good shape, is that the original fluid or have you changed any of it? Without being there, it's hard to tell what's making the noise. Maybe you could have someone outside the car listen to it, it would be fairly easy to tell where it's coming from.

I have a feeling it's your engine, and makes the noise when it's under a load. It could simply be that you're running an oil that's too thick.
 
what rpm is that engine running it sounds way too high..maybe its just the video but it sounds like around 2500+ when it first started if thats the case there could be bearing and or rod clearance/noise due to the high revs.. those engines are really pretty much bullet proof we don't see many of those in our shop (we are rebuilders) and the ones we see are from neglect and overheating.. By the way nice video. When you do an oil and filter change with a dry filter is the noise a lot louder if so its probably internal..
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work

My wife drives an 06 Corolla with 28k miles, and it's never made that noise, even when cold.

You ask if this is normal when cold. Definitely not normal.

You say the ATF is in good shape, is that the original fluid or have you changed any of it? Without being there, it's hard to tell what's making the noise. Maybe you could have someone outside the car listen to it, it would be fairly easy to tell where it's coming from.

I have a feeling it's your engine, and makes the noise when it's under a load. It could simply be that you're running an oil that's too thick.


No, that is not the original tranny fluid. I did a couple of drain and refills back in October. I also dropped the pan and cleaned the screen.

I do run German Castrol, changed it out a couple of months ago. If the oil was too thick, would it knock all the time, or just while in gear? I have been using GC for the last 30K miles. I did an UOA back in July and it came back fine. BTW, this is the first time I used green GC, the other times it was the gold.
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
what rpm is that engine running it sounds way too high..maybe its just the video but it sounds like around 2500+ when it first started if thats the case there could be bearing and or rod clearance/noise due to the high revs.. those engines are really pretty much bullet proof we don't see many of those in our shop (we are rebuilders) and the ones we see are from neglect and overheating.. By the way nice video. When you do an oil and filter change with a dry filter is the noise a lot louder if so its probably internal..


RPM on start up was just above 2K RPM. I have found that it is typical for my 1zz-fe on start up to that RPM on very cold days. I always prefill my oil filter, so I could not compare the noises. Do you think the GC could cause it to knock while only in drive or reverse?
 
Originally Posted By: frank83
Originally Posted By: hate2work

My wife drives an 06 Corolla with 28k miles, and it's never made that noise, even when cold.

You ask if this is normal when cold. Definitely not normal.

You say the ATF is in good shape, is that the original fluid or have you changed any of it? Without being there, it's hard to tell what's making the noise. Maybe you could have someone outside the car listen to it, it would be fairly easy to tell where it's coming from.

I have a feeling it's your engine, and makes the noise when it's under a load. It could simply be that you're running an oil that's too thick.


No, that is not the original tranny fluid. I did a couple of drain and refills back in October. I also dropped the pan and cleaned the screen.

I do run German Castrol, changed it out a couple of months ago. If the oil was too thick, would it knock all the time, or just while in gear? I have been using GC for the last 30K miles. I did an UOA back in July and it came back fine. BTW, this is the first time I used green GC, the other times it was the gold.


Well, the biggest clue to this puzzle is that it only happens when it's cold, and is fine when it's hot. I'm not familiar with GC, so I don't know the weights of the green or gold. But if you were using an oil that was a tad too thick on startup, that could explain why the noise happens when you put the car under load ( in gear ) and goes away when the engine heats up and the oil thins.

It could also be a flange or cowling that is loose and tightens up when it gets hot. And putting it in gear changes the RPM of the engine and stops the vibration.

Having another set of ears is critical to pinpointing where the noise is coming from, and that will tell you where you need to investigate.
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work
Originally Posted By: frank83
Originally Posted By: hate2work

My wife drives an 06 Corolla with 28k miles, and it's never made that noise, even when cold.

You ask if this is normal when cold. Definitely not normal.

You say the ATF is in good shape, is that the original fluid or have you changed any of it? Without being there, it's hard to tell what's making the noise. Maybe you could have someone outside the car listen to it, it would be fairly easy to tell where it's coming from.

I have a feeling it's your engine, and makes the noise when it's under a load. It could simply be that you're running an oil that's too thick.


No, that is not the original tranny fluid. I did a couple of drain and refills back in October. I also dropped the pan and cleaned the screen.

I do run German Castrol, changed it out a couple of months ago. If the oil was too thick, would it knock all the time, or just while in gear? I have been using GC for the last 30K miles. I did an UOA back in July and it came back fine. BTW, this is the first time I used green GC, the other times it was the gold.


Well, the biggest clue to this puzzle is that it only happens when it's cold, and is fine when it's hot. I'm not familiar with GC, so I don't know the weights of the green or gold. But if you were using an oil that was a tad too thick on startup, that could explain why the noise happens when you put the car under load ( in gear ) and goes away when the engine heats up and the oil thins.

It could also be a flange or cowling that is loose and tightens up when it gets hot. And putting it in gear changes the RPM of the engine and stops the vibration.


I am now thinking of dumping the GC and putting in M1 5W-30 (SL). I have a pretty large stash of the GC, would it hurt switching back and forth between the GC in summer and M1 in winter? Or should I just stick with one oil? If the oil is the problem, could the knocking have caused any long term problems with the engine, I imagine the knocking is from oil starvation?

Thanks for you help.
 
Originally Posted By: LTVibe

You might want to check the serpentine belt tensioner. When the 03-07 Corolla/Matrix/Vibe tensioners start going bad they can rattle, squeak, or sound like a diesel. And the noise will often go away when the engine is warm.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232919

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236695

Toyota TSB for belt tensioner, 2003-2007 (PDF)




I just inspected the tensioner, no signs of leaking but I had a friend that started the car, foot on brake while in drive and I noticed that the serp belt, between 3 and 4 in this diagram, http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z235/Lee614n/1zbelt.jpg was vibrating up and down. Does that mean my serp belt is loose? The belt did not vibrate up and down while in park. How would putting the car in gear cause the belt to vibrate. Sorry for my noobish questions.

Frank
 
That sure sounds like a serp belt slapping to me. How far is the belt deflecting up and down? More than 1/2 - 3/4" would make that sound for sure.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
That sure sounds like a serp belt slapping to me. How far is the belt deflecting up and down? More than 1/2 - 3/4" would make that sound for sure.


It was hard to measure, as I only had a small window to view it. I had it slip on me a few months back, I drove through a small puddle and my battery light came on for a few seconds, I pulled over to check it out and the belt was wet and the alternator was dry.

Thanks guys for the help. Why would it only slap when cold?
 
I always do the simplest thing first, then go from there.

Change your oil, and if that cures it, great. If not, you know it wasn't the oil, you haven't hurt anything and can proceed accordingly.

What weights are these green and gold GC oils you're using?

Yes, you can safely switch back and forth between oils.

I'm wondering the same thing about your belt, why would it only slap when it was cold?
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work

I always do the simplest thing first, then go from there.

Change your oil, and if that cures it, great. If not, you know it wasn't the oil, you haven't hurt anything and can proceed accordingly.

What weights are these green and gold GC oils you're using?

Yes, you can safely switch back and forth between oils.

I'm wondering the same thing about your belt, why would it only slap when it was cold?


Weights for the GC are 0w-30, but it is on the thick end, close to a 40 weight.
 
Belts are stiff and unpliablewhen cold, which is why they will slap when cold and squeal.
 
I had this happen on my truck and I'd had it less than a year. It didn't sound THAT bad but I could hear a knock when cold. Drove me nuts because I'd get it to the dealer and the tensioner would be warmed up and start working properly. Once, it stopped knocking when I pulled into the dealership lot!
crazy2.gif

Finally, they kept the truck until the sound could be produced and the tensioner was replaced under warranty.
 
I got it fixed, it was the [censored] tensioner. I would think Toyota would engineer it to last longer than 50 K. Thanks for your help.
 
Originally Posted By: frank83
I got it fixed, it was the [censored] tensioner. I would think Toyota would engineer it to last longer than 50 K. Thanks for your help.

Glad it was the tensioner and not something serious.
thumbsup2.gif


I too would like to know why Toyota couldn't have used a simple spring-loaded design instead of one with the trouble-prone hydraulic "shock absorber".
 
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