Going to ditch 5w20 and switch to 5w30

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
This is not a new problem with a Honda engine. Major rocker and cam wear has also been an issue with some H22's. Not common, but more than a few instances, all with proper valve lash. OEM and aftermarket cams/valvetrain. In this motor it's alwaysthe vtec rocker and lobe on the exhaust side. It's been an issue only the last few years. Many have speculated it's a problem with SM oils and the lack of ZDDP. I'm afraid mine are starting to show some wear as well.

One example, the intake side of the head doesn't have the oil staining. Amsoil S2K 0W-30 was used at the time:

This is one that was caught early:

Not sure if the J32 applies to this but I'm glad it's always had an oil with lots of ZDDP.

The Turbo Buicks had a problem with the #3 exhaust lobe but it wasn't the oil, the lifter was centered perfectly on the cam lobe so the lifter wouldn't rotate. Within a few miles of putting in stiffer valvesprings, especially with a more aggressive cam, the cam was flat and if you were lucky only the turbo was ruined. Only way to fix it was a different block.

Another disaster was the "budget roller" cam setup. Very cheap, took out 100s of GN engines due to insufficiently hardened cams.

My only point is I wonder if it was the oil in the Hondas or a design flaw.

 

[mechtech2]

I am sorry to see this happen in your newer engine.
A more robust oil may attenuate the wear of the poor design/manufacturing of that area.

 

[Cujet]

The Volkswagen PD diesel engines also loose camshafts at an alarming rate. Interestingly enough, VW dealers went from 5-40 to 5-30 (505.01) oils. The problems seem to happen more on the cars with the thinner oil. There is also a fairly straight forward relationship between cam survival and the use of Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5-40 (a very robust oil).

In fact, I'd put money on the fact that the use of an even thicker oil (say M1 15-50) would fully eliminate camshaft problems, 100%.

Hydronamic lubrication prevents metal to metal contact. The quality heavier viscosities are often better under high heat/pressure IMHO. ZDDP helps prevent wear when metal to metal contact occurs. It's only a crutch.

Air cooled aircraft engines have camshafts that survive without any ZDDP at all. However the oil is "straight 50" such as Aeroshell 100. Or 15-50 semi synthetic that is as thick as honey.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
Looking at that picture, I see uniform wear and a spall. The spall appears to be surface-initiated. It appears that it wore down and then spalled.

Was this engine altered with stiffer springs? This could explain the wear pattern and spalling. The cam would need to be metallurgically examined for microstructure decomposition from Hertzian stresses which could verify this condition.

Like I tell my clients, you can't jump to conclusions and go to a fix without understanding the root cause of the problem. The problem could be a metallurgically deficient camshaft (I've seen plenty), poor oil feed (I've seen that), or a poor engine design that is overstressing the cam. Changing the oil grade will not solve an overstress condition. We can only speculate.


Bingo- I'm thinking it was defective metal used for these cams or poor manufacturing. I saw similar wear in cams when I worked in the auto parts store machine shop back in the 70's. It was later found that a certain string of engines that were coming in for shop work had defective cams. Poorly hardened/treated????????? Its been a lot of years.

Frank D

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

Well I finally got off my lazy [censored] and changed out the M1 0w20 to PP 5w30. This might be confirmation bias, but WOW. The engine's idle is smoother and quieter. Before, the idle was rather rattly and loud. Hitting 7000rpms seemed smoother to.

It isn't a scientific review by any means, but I'm definitely sticking to PP5w30 from now.

 

[FZ1]

Thicker is smoother. Next time try PP 5-20,it's smoother than M1 5-20 in my Honda v6.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I was bad metallurgy, afaik. People who switched out to Skunk cams never had the problem, iirc.

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Well I finally got off my lazy [censored] and changed out the M1 0w20 to PP 5w30. This might be confirmation bias, but WOW. The engine's idle is smoother and quieter. Before, the idle was rather rattly and loud. Hitting 7000rpms seemed smoother to.

It isn't a scientific review by any means, but I'm definitely sticking to PP5w30 from now.


I noted the same results moving from FF 5w20 to PP5w30 in my 09 Corolla...except for the 7000 rpms part, which I don't feel comfortable doing...Also prepare for fuel economy to stay the same, 20wt doesn't make as big of a difference as many make it out to be..if any...heck the Prius used 30wt from its introduction until last year I think, and that is a car that is made for fuel economy via tricks & tweaks.

 

[PT1]

If you look at the viscosity numbers on PP5w30 it is not a real thick oil I think the HTHS is a 3 and the 5w20 is something like a 2.6 so the 5w30 should do fine in an engine speced for 5w20. That said, I did try the 5w30 in a 2002 Honda CRV and it seemed more sluggish than the 5w20. I have been running PP in all my vehicles for 2 years now and really like it. It is now my oil of choice.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

So much for the "Amsoil Balls Test." My opinion only....based upon that picture from vinu neuro.....

 

[Liquid_Turbo]

Hi guys,

Update. after 4000miles on 5w30 I checked the oil for the first time. None burnt!

Usually it would need 1/2 quart top off by now. I'm sticking w/ PP 5w3o from now on

 

[Brett Miller]

I an 03 Civic that has had nothing but 5W-20 for 67,000 miles. I'll have to shine a flashlight in the oil fill hole tonight.

 

[TallPaul]

5w20 is not really needed in most cars, so in that respect, why use it. 10w30 is a good all purpose grade IMO.

 

[Hounds]

Liquid_Turbo and I frequent the same boards, and he's right, a great deal has been written about the issue of camshaft galling and pitting, and whether those problems stem from oil shearing which, is turn, can be traced to Honda's decision approximately six years ago to recommend ("CAFE-friendly") 5W-20 weight motor oil for all but its higher performance engines (i.e., the engine in the S2000, Type-S & R motors and, now, the current generation Si motors). Significantly, HMC also recommends 5W-30 weight synthetic oil for its turbocharged motors, which I believe speaks volumes. I strongly believe that 5W-20 weight oil is THE cause of camshaft wear described and pictured above, and whenever I've written about this I've asked whether anyone who ignored HMC's recommendation (as I have) and chose, instead, to continue using 5W-30 weight oil had experienced these problems. So far, in two years of posting my (humble/lay) opinion on various boards, no one has responded to my comments indicating that s/he used 5W-30 weight oil and still experienced this camshaft wear problem. That doesn't mean it hasn't occurred, of course, but I remain convinced it is THE reason Honda continued to recommend 5W-30 weight oil for it high performance engines.

I really would like to read others' opinions on this subject.

 

[Peter_Pan]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
The 09 corolla has an issue with oil consumption while using 0/5w20. Toyotas TSB solution was to detune the VVT-I resulting is much less oil consumption, but also less power and lowered fuel economy. Instead of getting the TSB flash, the issue goes away when you switch to 5w30 and you get to keep all your power & fuel economy, so I think its entirely possible.

As a side note North America is the only area where 5w20 is spec'd, everywhere else 30wt and 40wt, coincidently no other area of the world has the oil consumption or a TSB to address it.


In Japan Toyota has been recommending SM 0W-20 and SL 5W-20 for years now. Here is the link: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl...%3DG%26num%3D50 (go to the 2nd tab on the top)

Also I've posted screen shots of Mitsubishi Lancer manuals in Japan where it calls for 0W-20/5W-20 Preferred and 10W-30 allowed over 100 F. In the US they spec 5W-20 Preferred and 10W-30 allowed over 100 F.

This whole "the us is the only place where 5W-20 is specified" is starting to sound like a broken tune. If you have credible sources for your claim prepare to provide it and maybe we can all learn something.

 

[Max_Wander]

Originally Posted By: Peter_Pan

This whole "the us is the only place where 5W-20 is specified" is starting to sound like a broken tune. If you have credible sources for your claim prepare to provide it and maybe we can all learn something.


Well, true. That's like saying the US or North America are the only places with fuel economy and emissions standard priorities.