Alignment Help '05 Matrix XR

[benjamming]

I had new tires installed on an '05 Toyota Matrix XR (FWD) yesterday. BTW, the tires were Continental ContiPro Contact 91V 205/55R16. They replaced the same tires but 91H. 40k miles was achieved but should have lasted longer if an alignment had been performed many moons ago (it is my sister's car). I was also going to have an alignment performed but no bolts or shims readily available. The actual readings are below. What bolts for the front & shims for the rear should I get? What sources online are available or is the dealership my best bet? Do local auto parts stores typically have these (NAPA, etc.)?

Also, what results do I want for this car? Midpoint of the specified ranges everywhere?

Code:


Front Left Front Right Spec

-1.60 Camber -0.02 -1.32 0.18

2.67 Caster 2.30 2.03 3.53

0.04 Toe -0.24 -0.10 0.10

13.43 SAI 12.22 11.72 13.22

11.83 Included Angle 12.20 10.40 13.40



Front Spec

Cross Camber -1.58 -0.75 0.75

Cross Caster 0.38 -0.75 0.75

Cross SAI 1.21 -0.75 0.75

Total Toe -0.20 -0.20 0.20



Rear Left Rear Right Spec

-2.29 Camber -0.62 -1.95 -0.95

0.28 Toe 0.02 0.00 0.29



Rear Spec

Cross Camber -1.68 -0.50 0.50

Total Toe 0.30 0.00 0.53

Thrust Angle 0.13

 

[bdcardinal]

a lot of times a dealer wont carry those parts since they are aftermarket. check on a website like rock auto. spicer usually has adjustable cam bolts for the front dampeners that allow camber adjustment. on some vehicles, i think the matrix might be one, you have to install a shim on the rear end to adjust camber / toe.

when i would do alignments, i always got them to midpoint of spec. i could actually close in the specs on my alignment machine to make it more accurate. that being said i regularly aligned cars purposefully out of spec due to the customers wanting a performance alignment.

 

[bullwinkle]

Not sure about your alignment specs, but I had 3 sets of those tires btw. my '03 Vibe & my mom's '06 Matrix, not one set made it to 20K with NO alignment problems, IMHO if you made 40K I would consider you very lucky (& easy on your tires!).

 

[benjamming]

Shims are required to adjust the camber/toe on the rear. Bolts are required for the front.
What's the deal with full contact shims for rear adjustment? Should I stay away from them?
Spicer p/n 6151146 is the shims for the rear suspension of plus/minus 0.75°. Spicer p/n 6151147 is for 1°. Are these from the current setting? Which one do I need? I assume the 0.75° shims. Do I need 2 or 1? I assume 2; 1 for each side.

Spicer p/n 6161030 says plus/minus 1-1/4° for the front suspension, 14mm bolts, crank type. Is this to change plus/minus 1.25° from the current setting? Again, do I need 2 or 1?

Also, Spicer or Moog for the shims? RockAuto only has Spicer for the front bolts.

 

[bdcardinal]

the rear shims are both good for spicer or moog. i would not attempt installing full contact shims by yourself. the alignment rack i used at work would print out a template for me to cut to fit it past the hub studs. you also have to orient them correctly to get the correct amount of toe and camber adjustment. it was usually a compromise, you couldn't get them both perfectly in spec, but could get them really really close.

if you do want to attempt the full contact shims yourself, use the smallest dykes you can get to cut the tabs for the wheel studs. i had a mini set that i got from MATCO, Knipex brand. when i didnt use them the shims would just shatter. they are very brittle.

 

[CapriRacer]

Ben,

You've confirmed a suspicion I had: That too much camber and too much toe in compensate with the result of "no pull". This means that when someone says "The car doesn't pull, so the alignment must be OK." .... well, he can be wrong!!

You've also confirmed a suspicion I had about the Matrix (and the Vibe) that the alignment specs aren't designed for good tire wear. 1½° camber is way too excessive for good tire wear.

Thanks.

 

[ewetho]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
I had new tires installed on an '05 Toyota Matrix XR (FWD) yesterday. BTW, the tires were Continental ContiPro Contact 91V 205/55R16. They replaced the same tires but 91H. 40k miles was achieved but should have lasted longer if an alignment had been performed many moons ago (it is my sister's car). I was also going to have an alignment performed but no bolts or shims readily available. The actual readings are below. What bolts for the front & shims for the rear should I get? What sources online are available or is the dealership my best bet? Do local auto parts stores typically have these (NAPA, etc.)?

Also, what results do I want for this car? Midpoint of the specified ranges everywhere?

Code:


Front Left Front Right Spec

-1.60 Camber -0.02 -1.32 0.18

2.67 Caster 2.30 2.03 3.53

0.04 Toe -0.24 -0.10 0.10

13.43 SAI 12.22 11.72 13.22

11.83 Included Angle 12.20 10.40 13.40



Front Spec

Cross Camber -1.58 -0.75 0.75

Cross Caster 0.38 -0.75 0.75

Cross SAI 1.21 -0.75 0.75

Total Toe -0.20 -0.20 0.20



Rear Left Rear Right Spec

-2.29 Camber -0.62 -1.95 -0.95

0.28 Toe 0.02 0.00 0.29



Rear Spec

Cross Camber -1.68 -0.50 0.50

Total Toe 0.30 0.00 0.53

Thrust Angle 0.13


Rear toe is JUST FINE no adjustment necessary or recommended. Sure it is off side to side but together just about right. Not an issue. Sure you may dogtrack 1/4 of a degree but who cares.

The problem is in the camber. Front and rear. You probably need a new left strut out front due to camber but check over the other suspension parts. You know this by the SAI being High while the IA is OK and within .5 of the right side. IA being OK indicates the bent component is in between the strut bearing plate and the lower ball joint. Most likely component is the strut.

Out back you need the shims available from Napa is all else fails. Get a shim and new bolts as those are stressed from bending something (spindle or rear suspension arm. a 1 degree shim should be OK. Have installed to correct Camber only.

Then just adjust front toe to correct.

 

[CapriRacer]

I'm going to disagree with ewetho on the toe.

My experience - albeit from a distance - is that radial tires are sensitive to toe. In order to assure good tire wear, the toe has to be within 0.06° of nominal per side - that's 0.12° total.

To put this in perspective: A tire with 0.06° toe would be the equivalent of dragging the tire sideways for 42 miles for every 40,00 miles. The good news is that tires are flexible and deform, so it doesn't quite work out to an equivalency. Nevertheless, the principle is the same - and worse is much worse! Since toe is infinitely adjustable, a good alignment tech ought to be able to set the toe at the nominal value.

BTW, I have also been working on the rest of the alignment specs (looking strictly from a tire's perspective) and have come to the conclusion that camber needs to be within ½° and caster needs to be within 1°. I would appreciate feedback from folks who are a little more involved than I am.

 

[ewetho]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I'm going to disagree with ewetho on the toe.

My experience - albeit from a distance - is that radial tires are sensitive to toe. In order to assure good tire wear, the toe has to be within 0.06° of nominal per side - that's 0.12° total.

To put this in perspective: A tire with 0.06° toe would be the equivalent of dragging the tire sideways for 42 miles for every 40,00 miles. The good news is that tires are flexible and deform, so it doesn't quite work out to an equivalency. Nevertheless, the principle is the same - and worse is much worse! Since toe is infinitely adjustable, a good alignment tech ought to be able to set the toe at the nominal value.

BTW, I have also been working on the rest of the alignment specs (looking strictly from a tire's perspective) and have come to the conclusion that camber needs to be within ½° and caster needs to be within 1°. I would appreciate feedback from folks who are a little more involved than I am.



I would agree on tolerance of toe but the spec is 0.0 to 0.53 which is 0.26 each side. OK with a tolerance of .12 total from ideal you would have a range of 0.14-0.38 which the provided spec of 0.30 currently fall well within.

Remember the thrust angle is the angle which you set the front tires too. So the rear tires going down the road will actually have a toe of 0.15 or 0.03 off of the ideal. Remember most cars only have a total toe spec in back as the expect the fronts to be aligned to the resulting thrust angle not to the centerline of the car.

On a hunter the NOMINAL specs out back are just a derivative of the original total toe spec. The fronts will automatically adjust to this angle. So if you aligned a car to the original thrust angle then adjusted out back your fronts would be whack.

hat we are looking at is really in the end the body goes down the road 0.15 degrees out of true???

If you look at a truck with a solid axle you just align to the thrust angle and go from there. 0.15 is normal.

In this case the rear toe is adjustable with shims but is essentially a solid rear end. If total toe is good you can go after rear camber if you wish but fix the front and you will be good.