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#1175553 - 06/19/08 10:09 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
BTW do you really want to run a 20 micron filter that will allow some particles larger than 20 microns to float around in your oil when the oil film thickness is about 25 microns? Which means if a Pure One Filter is 98% efficient at 20 microns there are 2% of the particles larger than 20 microns getting through and not trapped in the filter. Any of these that are 25 microns or larger are larger than the oil fluid film thickness and will scratch internal surfaces. This is a true bearing surface killer for sure. Not worth $6 IMO.
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#1175603 - 06/19/08 11:12 AM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
Ok, made a few calls to those "in the know" they said you definitely want 5 micron filtration in a HD TC engine mainly because of the cam tensioner shoes that shed plastic which can easily clog the smaller passages & jets. They also went on to say a 20 micron filter ( in a TC and NOT an EVO) is asking for trouble. The guy did mention that many people now cut open the used oil filters at about 25,000 miles to look for the orange plastic pieces parts from the shoes to give an indicator if they are coming apart. He also mentioned only 2 or 3 manufacturers even make a 5 micron synthetic media filter for the application. The purolator ML one would be fine.
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#1175627 - 06/19/08 12:00 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
dwendt44 Offline


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3571
Loc: Central Wisconsin
"If not then why does purolator have a seperate application chart for motorcycles on their website? "

The same reason that oil companies list motorcycle oil,
and small engine oil, and three kinds of 2 cycle oil.
The average joe doesn't realize that, for the most part, there is little, if any, difference in the verious versions, and will
pay more for 'special' products.

To be specific, and it's just an opinion, 20 um is pretty small, and I doubt there are any orifice or jet in the lubrication system that is anywhere near that small.
If there are concerns about plastic bits floating around the internals, why would the filter be designed to go into bypass so often or so long?

Using logic with a Harley-Davidson devotee is an oxymoron.
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#1175686 - 06/19/08 01:47 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dwendt44]
PT1 Offline


Registered: 02/06/07
Posts: 5746
Loc: near the mistake
If there are concerns about plastic bits floating around the internals, why would the filter be designed to go into bypass so often or so long?

Because the engine dry sump design is such (so old) that at start up the internals would be starved of lubrication. The real issue is why use plastic tensioner shoes which are an achilles heel for this engine. They should be using gear driven cams like S&S and others use and this issue would be moot. The 5 micron filter is probably a band-aid preventative fix to prevent a huge engine recall retrofit IMO. If you do a DFMEA the needs for quick start up lubrication trumps the plastic pieces "potentially" floating around in there that can be filtered out. So add a real tight filter spec that only involves changing an external part and you get a workable solution without having to add expensive cam drives. No doubt this was discovered as an after thought. Plus cam gear drives whine & buzz like crazy under load and there would be many customer complaints. Personally, I would have gone with a 10-20 micron filter and cam drives. Which on my RR of my tensioner shoes may happen since gears are bullet proof compared to the chain system.

Not a good choice on the part of HD but that is why they are stressing the 5 micron filter so heavily.

BTW, I have seen some of the tensioner shoes in the 06's come apart at 25,000 miles. Which really sucks because getting the internal one changed out is a PIA.


Edited by PT1 (06/19/08 01:50 PM)
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#1176306 - 06/20/08 02:39 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
daves66nova Offline


Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 3140
Loc: los angeles
uh, is there a "car" cross number for a fram ph6018? I use this for an '89 gsxr 750
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#1176372 - 06/20/08 04:36 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: daves66nova]
RWEST Offline


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 1373
Loc: Somerset County, PA
Dave - Here's "the chart" http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterStudy.html

Doesn't look like us Suzuki'ites have a great variety of top quality choices available. Their goofy 20 x 1mm thread or something. \:\(

I love Mark's (the guy who made the filter comparo chart) note in the Suzuki filter section "None are recommended".


Edited by RWEST (06/20/08 04:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Added Mark's note
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#1177055 - 06/21/08 11:16 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
Rolf Offline


Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 475
Loc: Washington, DC
 Originally Posted By: PT1
One interesting note: Purolator Pure One oil filter ( one of the very best automotive oil filters on the market) #PL10241 which is a 20 micron rated filter that will fit the Harley TC 88 & 96 engine is $5.88 at AAP. However, the one recommended by Purolator for the HD TC88/96 engine is part # ML16822 which has the HD spec. it is $10.99 at AAP. ....


From Purolator's website:

PL10241:

Thread Pitch: UNF-2B
Relief Valve P.S.I.: 12-17
O.D.: 2.98
Height: 3.36
Threads: 3/4-16
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes

ML16822:

Thread Pitch: UNF-2B
Relief Valve P.S.I.: 12-15
O.D.: 2.98
Height: 3.36
Threads: 3/4-16
Height: 3.36
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes

My impression is that the two differences are a different paint job on ML16822 and a higher price tag.

Btw, Champion Labs makes the OEM Harley filters.

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#1177284 - 06/22/08 12:27 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: dnewton3]
EagleFTE Offline


Registered: 03/28/08
Posts: 507
Loc: St. louis
Well I don't have time to read through this whole thread but in a nut shell what PT1 said. dnewton read some information but it seems that he does not know the difference between a TC and an Evo and they are different in oiling systems and filtration requirements. The SP 5 micron is an "upgrade" for the P/Ns listed which are all Evo filters. Actual use of the SP5 on Evos has proven to be problematic so I wuld not consider it an upgrade at all. The SP5 is too restrictive for the Evos oil system it seems and there is plenty of real world emperical data on that.

If someone that does not own a TC says to use a 20 micron paper filter on that engine take it with a grain of salt. Better yet don't do it period. If some has a problem with anything that says HD on it fine. There are a handful of equal or better filters from K&N (Champion made), Amsoil (Wix made), Perf-Form and more. They are all expensive like the HD and they all use an advanced "synthetic" media. Hd went to to the higher filtration on the TC for the reasons PT1 noted, like or not.

Wix makes great filter but I would not use a 20 some micron paper filter on my TCs or even my Evo. There are too many better options out there for a price difference of a couple of buds spread over a 6 month period. It's a no brainer. And I'm an engineer (21 years aerospace) as well and that and plus $3.50 will buy you a Wix filter.

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#1283217 - 11/14/08 04:04 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: PT1]
moosestang Offline


Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 35
Loc: Gainesville, fl
 Originally Posted By: PT1
Ok, made a few calls to those "in the know" they said you definitely want 5 micron filtration in a HD TC engine mainly because of the cam tensioner shoes that shed plastic which can easily clog the smaller passages & jets. They also went on to say a 20 micron filter ( in a TC and NOT an EVO) is asking for trouble. The guy did mention that many people now cut open the used oil filters at about 25,000 miles to look for the orange plastic pieces parts from the shoes to give an indicator if they are coming apart. He also mentioned only 2 or 3 manufacturers even make a 5 micron synthetic media filter for the application. The purolator ML one would be fine.


Didn't you say the bypass valve will open at start up, thereby allowing all those big particles to circulate around the motor and clog passages?

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#1311826 - 12/14/08 08:36 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: RWEST]
daves66nova Offline


Registered: 04/11/04
Posts: 3140
Loc: los angeles
 Originally Posted By: RWEST
Dave - Here's "the chart" http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterStudy.html

Doesn't look like us Suzuki'ites have a great variety of top quality choices available. Their goofy 20 x 1mm thread or something. \:\(

I love Mark's (the guy who made the filter comparo chart) note in the Suzuki filter section "None are recommended".
would this work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Earls-Oil...Q2em118Q2el1247
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#1313475 - 12/16/08 02:54 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: daves66nova]
RWEST Offline


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 1373
Loc: Somerset County, PA
dave - Probably more complicated than we'd need, with all the plumbing and such required. Plus, there's very little room between the headers and the engine to fit everything in there. We can get serviceable 20 x 1 filters for $5 - 6, with a little shopping.
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#1313598 - 12/16/08 05:27 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: RWEST]
jeff8407 Offline


Registered: 11/19/08
Posts: 43
Loc: CA
For what it is worth, I use Purolator Pureone filters on all my bikes. You can't beat the filtration, plus with the recent sale on Amazon they were only $4.50 each.
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#1313834 - 12/16/08 08:36 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: jeff8407]
wileyE Offline


Registered: 11/18/04
Posts: 1967
Loc: Kitsap, WA
Wasn't the 5 micron harley filter a bandaid to fix another problem hopefully till it got off warranty? a sharply machined chain that was scrubbing wear metals off it's tensioner

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#1313869 - 12/16/08 09:17 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: wileyE]
Norm Olt Offline


Registered: 01/27/03
Posts: 1819
Loc: Pac NW
"Shedding debris" & "plastic bits" floating around in the engine kind'a scares me! I had an iron head kick-start 1000cc Sportster for my senior spring & summer quarters in college, cold blooded SOB that it was, it was a lot of fun and the only one I ever saw around campus (Oxford, Ohio) that didn't have some over-aged delinquent in "colors" riding it.

Just an over-aged delinquent in Frye boots, Levi's and a flannel shirt most of the time: me!

Cheers!
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#1314763 - 12/17/08 06:56 PM Re: Motorcycle vs Car Oil Filters [Re: Norm Olt]
Redline955 Offline


Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 132
Loc: CT, USA
The Purolator Pure One is rated very highly for M/C's. I have done a lot of research, and have concluded that M/C specific oil and filters are just a marketing ploy to get us to spend more money. I've been using Mobil 1 15/50 and Pure Ones in my speed Triple for 33,000 miles without issue.

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