I am tired of everybody saying 20 wt oils exist only for gas mileage

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I would like to modify my statement in my response to AEHAAS above..20 wts with HT/HS less than 3.0cP, represent another episode etc etc. Despite my thesis I fell into my own trap...it is NOT viscosity that matters in this discussion it is HT/HS. If a 5W-20, all other performance aspects also being acceptable, is at least 3.0 (yes I prefer 3.5 and higher) then I can live with it. I probably won't use it, but I can live with it.
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I agree with pscholte. Good point.
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I'm going to call Dave G. at RL tomorrow. Why not get his take?
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And anpother find on the Fuchs-Silkolene site:
http://www.silkolene.com/
click on "product range," then pick "4 wheel motor sports products."


Compare for example what they say about wear, level of protection, and application!

Excerpt:

quote:


Pro S 5W-40
A fully synthetic high performance engine oil that provides optimum protection for extended engine life and reliability. It exceeds the performance requirements of virtually all engine manufacturers. Combines exceptional anti-wear performance and outstanding high temperature protection with excellent cold start characteristics. Suitable for use in turbocharged and normally aspirated, diesel and petrol engines to ensure continued maximum fuel economy and reduced emissions. API SJ, SL, CF, ACEA A3, B3, BMW & MERCEDES


Silkolene 0W-20
Silkolene 0W-20 advanced development project is an entirely new concept in racing lubrication. Racing engines lose power and fuel energy due to oil drag and friction. This maximum power Silkolene 0W-20 is a unique low viscosity synthetic which cuts oil drag yet maintains a tough low-wear film on highly stressed components. Specially researched friction modifier chemistry depends upon electrostatic adhesion to attack friction at crucial points in valve and power train systems – two sources of hidden power give that vital edge in acceleration and full throttle output. Electrosyntec technology – releases hidden power. CAUTION: strictly for professional racing and track use only. Some older engine designs may have inadequate oil pump capacity under race conditions to maintain full oil pressure with this low viscosity product.

DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING?
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Would it not have been easier to just use synthetic 30 wt oils instead of developing dino 20 wt oils? Don’t the synthetic producers advertise huge gains on fuel economy and HP gains compared to dino oils?

aehaas
 
That would have worked if all they were selling to were the 6,729 members on this site. If you told the masses that if you are going to drive our cars, you have to use synthetic oil, well they would not sell many cars. Most of the driving population in this country could care less about synthetic oils. Face it, we're oil crazy.

Wait a minute
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Isn't there a TV show called Car Crazy on the Speed Channel? Maybe we should start a TV show.
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Wish we had Fusch's here. Looks like great oil. Are the Fuch's oils Ester based?
 
I have tested a variety of viscosities from 50wt to 20wt. I am most keen on 20wts bcos it suits my driving pattern best. Startup is also very easy with 20wt, it always starts with just 1 crank. Oil takes as long as 30mins to get fully warmed, my drives are usually never longer than 30mins. I do multiple short trips, with drives as short as 2km. I do however, drive to the redline often. I have also installed very accurate Defi Gauges. At highway speeds (90~110kph), oil temps never go past 105C. In city driving, extensive idling, stop and go, in fact the oil temp cools to 100C. The only time when my oil was stressed was when I drove to Malaysia and hit constant speeds >140kph on the highways or when climbing mountainous terrain, oil temps hit 118C. The ambient temp has very little effect on oil temp, whether it is a cool 18C morning or a hot 36C afternoon. I believe cars like Ferraris, Porsches, and Subaru WRXs will be even less stressful on the oils bcos they would have factory fitted oil coolers. To sum it up, I would recommend to choose a viscosity to suit your use. If I owned a Ferrari
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and used it as a daily driver here, I would also choose 20wt. If I live in Malaysia though, I would choose a 50wt. Regarding fuel economy, once the oil warms to normal operating temp, there is not much difference whether it is a 50wt or a 20wt.
 
Ken4, Even though I hate the idea of a 20Wt. oil in a Toyota I respect how you document you findings with UOA and seperate oil temp,, oil pressure, and water temp. guages!!! I agree your wear is still very low inspite of the 20Wt. but it was even lower with someof the heavier oil! If ever you run a 20Wt. in the 2AZ-FE make sure you do a UOA and post it. The only way I would ever consider a 20Wt. is if I saw your 2AZ-FE doing well on a steady diet of it!!

P.S. It was nice to here from you! I always enjoy your posts!
 
buster, That is $7 a quart for an oil that is untested in your vechile. Can you get it in smaller amounts? I would hate for you to get stuck with a $7 a quart oil if it does not work well in your car! You are a prefered Amsoil customer correct? If so I think that $7 a quart is about the price for S3K 5W30 wich we know is a proven product. DO not get me wrong I would really like to see another oil tested but the volume you have to by and the unkown factor has me worried for you!

I reliase $135 is not much for a lot of member but to me it represents a sizeable investment in a consumable that might not work well for you! Just my $.02!
 
I don't mean to step on any toes, but I really don't know that engines outside the US, although having the same engine name or from the same engine family are necessarily the same as US engines. Therefore, I cannot assume than an oil spec'd for a 1.7 honda engine in Europe or Australia will extend to my US based Honda. Why is A spec for a vehicle in say Europe more appropriate for my US Vehicle than what my US owners manual specifies for it? Doesn't make much sense to me, unless you are looking for a reason to ingore your manual regarding 20weight oils. That said, check this out

Weight Iron projection (metal/miles*100,000)
Iron
0w20 Average 537
0w30 Average 291
10w30 Average 256
10w40 Average 99
5w20 Average 370
5w30 Average 227
5w40 Average 265
Grand Average 297


A gentleman a while back posted some data on Ford Modulars and wear using different oils. I did a little reshuffling of his data and obtained the following resulsts. The numbers don't really mean anything except relative to each other. For example it seems the best wear was obtained by use of a 10w40, Of course there was only one data point for that particular weight (would love to see more data on that weight). basically I just took his Iron wear devided by miles on the sample, which should give me unit wear then multiplied by 100k. this should be a rough approximation of the total wear you would get in 100k miles, all things being equal. A rather simplist model, but it does make me seriously consider the 5 or 10/30 in favor of the 20. The 20 doesn't look that bad, but.....well, to each his own. Me I am still undecided so I am running 20 in my honda and 30 in my fords
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regards,

r.

ps: Unfortunately I lost the link to the original post, but its out there on BITOG somewhere. Might want to search for the word modulars..Sorry about that.
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[ April 19, 2005, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: dustyjoe1 ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING?
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Yeah, so? What's so unusual about having a warning that says a pure racing oil should not be used on the street?
 
I must add Mobil 1 was a 05/w20 when it first came on the market I used it in my Ford F150 6 cyl. untill the oil was switched to a 30 wt., this doesn't mean anything but I am wondering if a syn. would do the job. I remember the automotive world would come to an end when lead was removed from the gasoline,although removing lead was one of the best things that happened for engines.
 
Some of the variable valve mechanism's use precisely metered oil orifices in a hydralic lifter style device. It could be the thinner 20w oils (hydralic fluids?) give better and more precise control of these device?? Honda and ford both have this system, as does the new chevy 5cyl, I'm sure there's more.
 
quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING?
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Yeah, so? What's so unusual about having a warning that says a pure racing oil should not be used on the street?


But also says:

quote:

Some older engine designs may have inadequate oil pump capacity under race conditions to maintain full oil pressure with this low viscosity product.

Which I take to mean that some engines can't properly pump too thin of an oil in all circumstances. While we may not be "under race conditions," towing and/or just good old fun hard driving could be too much for an older engine with 5w20.
 
quote:

Originally posted by AEHaas:
Would it not have been easier to just use synthetic 30 wt oils instead of developing dino 20 wt oils? Don’t the synthetic producers advertise huge gains on fuel economy and HP gains compared to dino oils?

aehaas


I think the oil producers realize that many consumers, despite the increasing cost of their automotive investment, just won't embrace the cost of synthetics (even though they can embrace the cost of $3000 and up sound sytems--OK it is a pet peeve of mine) especially if they are getting their oil changed at a quick lube and pay a REAL PREMIUM for synthetics. I don't even think many care to take the time to buy thier syn themselves and then let the quick lube change it for them. So you try to recreate some of the gains inherent in a syn in a dino (even though guys like us know better); witness the dino/syn blends.
 
quote:

Dr.T writes: "Because the more intelligent motor vehicle populus in Europe selects a vehicle's fuel consumption based on engine size in liters vs. using a thinner oil."

More "ntelligent"? Lol...gotta laugh at that one. The American "populace" is far more knowledgable when it comes to cars than anybody else in the world. The best car clubs, innovators, performance shops, home garage tinkerer's, and every other facet of automobile interest. What is it with this "Europe is better" thing?
Pure garbage.
 
quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:

quote:

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

Originally posted by moribundman:
DOES ANYBODY SEE THE WARNING?
tongue.gif


Yeah, so? What's so unusual about having a warning that says a pure racing oil should not be used on the street?


But also says:

quote:

Some older engine designs may have inadequate oil pump capacity under race conditions to maintain full oil pressure with this low viscosity product.

Which I take to mean that some engines can't properly pump too thin of an oil in all circumstances. While we may not be "under race conditions," towing and/or just good old fun hard driving could be too much for an older engine with 5w20.


Actually what happens in a race motor is that the bearing and rod side clearances are sometimes much bigger, so a lighter weight oil gets pushed outside of the pressure zones that much quicker, and combined with the higher constant RPM, you stand a very good chance to suck the oil pan dry. This is another reason why the racer market is full of enlarged capacity oil pans.

Alot of hard core racers are going to 20W and lighter actually, especially with a larger pan and accumilator or dry sump system, its free horsepower.
 
Dr Haas,I think you are trying to sell air conditioning to eskimo's here.Most reccomendations for oil here are heavy 30's,light 40's and the ever favorite 15w40,I don't know what to think and am trying to gather enough data,make comparisons,try some experimentation and figure the best oil for my applications.I am intrigued by your experiences and will try M1 0w20 in my wife's 3.8 starting in late fall after getting some base line numbers throughout this spring summer using 0w30..I'm straying here,my point seems to be that some eye the other continents and see the use of heavier oil than we use here and by what oil weight alot here use fuel economy seems a mute point,good wear numbers is the target.....my $0.02
 
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