ZDP depletion and GM oil life monitor

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One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUALS driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly. No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.


There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car.

The oil life monitor is not under the control of a summer intern at GM Powertrain per an earlier post....LOL Not that a summer intern wasn't compiling calibrations or doing a project on it but is under control of the lube group with a variety of engineers directly responsible that have immediate responsibility for the different engine families and engine groups. The idea that a summer intern was responsible for or handling the oil life monitor is ludicrous.....LOL LOL LOL
 
Thanks for posting this. I was the one who questioned the relationship between oil life and ZDDP quantity. I know that around here, the measure of oil life remaining is TBN. Does GM use that measure at all?
 
Finally the real deal on the OLM system.....

Thank you Thank you
cheers.gif
 
BTW....something I forgot to mention. The oil life monitor was developed, validated and works fine with conventional oil...yes, non-sythetic, conventional, off the shelf SG4 gasoline engine oil.

I have seen the results and they are fine. Anyone that indicates that the oil life monitor is not designed for conventional oil is wrong. Synthetic oil is NOT required if you plan on following the oil life monitor.....which you should.
 
quote:

Originally posted by teamDFL:
Thanks for posting this. I was the one who questioned the relationship between oil life and ZDDP quantity. I know that around here, the measure of oil life remaining is TBN. Does GM use that measure at all?

Yes....but TBN is just one of the factors determining oil life. You cannot just use it and ignore the anti-wear concentration or contaminate level or ????. It is just one factor...not THE factor.
 
bbobynski,

Great post!
Now, since you now so much about the OLM system, I assume you now at least some about "the right viscosity." If that's the case, then give us the goods:

-Does GM really like the new, almost Zinc-less oils?
-What is the ideal viscosity for say, an LS1 engine in weather over 75*F? Is it really 5W-30 as per GM instructions?

Thanks a lot!
 
quote:

Originally posted by unDummy:
Sure, the GM OLM is great for the lazy consumer and environment. But, whats the effect on engine life for owners who keep cars forever?

Trust GM. They'll have you buying a new car every 3-4 years
grin.gif


http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=122&did=969
http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answers/oilmon.html


Spoken by a true non-believer.

You just cannot argue with the facts. When thousands of cars run the oil life monitor and confirm the oil life monitor's accuracy in predicting oil life it cannot be ignored. Whether you like it or not, GM comes up with something good, that works and you just cannot accept it. Too bad.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Last_Z:
bbobynski,

Great post!
Now, since you now so much about the OLM system, I assume you now at least some about "the right viscosity." If that's the case, then give us the goods:

-Does GM really like the new, almost Zinc-less oils?
-What is the ideal viscosity for say, an LS1 engine in weather over 75*F? Is it really 5W-30 as per GM instructions?

Thanks a lot!


The "zinc-less" oils are the current crop of SG4 oils with lower levels of ZDP..???? If so, they are fine with the engines that they are spec'd for. Current engines need very little of the anti-wear compounds to survive due to the extensive use of rolling elements at friction points, elimination of distributor drive gears for oil pumps, gerotor oil pumps, etc....

I run 5W30 in my 02 Corvette if that makes any difference to you..... The engines are rigorously tested with the viscosity grades recommended. 5W30 is fine. 5W30 is preferred over the 10W30 for fuel economy reasons which is why it is the OEM spec and why it is the factory fill. The idea that it might not perform well with this oil is ludicrous. You can use 10W30 but there is little or nothing to gain and you will get poorer fuel economy.

My same comment applies....how do those darned Powertrain engineers manage to design/develop/validate an engine like the Corvette LS6 and not know the proper oil viscosity for it....LOL LOL Use the recommended viscosity. That is what the engine runs all validatin and endurance testing with. If you use something else YOU are doing the testing.
 
GM also came out with Dexcool, or Deathcool as some call it.

As an enviromentalist, I LIKE the oil life monitor.
As a vehicle owner, it doesn't know my oil level or oil brand chosen. We can't convince owners to read the manual for oil change intervals. How can we expect them to check the oil level? wait for the idiot light?

Spend less on oil and save it for the intake manifold gasket replacements, if your lucky.

I just won't buy any used GM products, nor will I buy any used known sludgemonsters made by VW/Audi/Toyota.......

Also, there were fancy algorithms already for oil change intervals.
My algorithm relies on the calender and odometer. My friends boat relies on a timer.
Another friend monitors fuel usage, which probably mimics the GM OLM very closely.
And, this website seems to love the UOA, which I see as one of the best methods to determine an OCI.
 
The trouble is that none of those other methods for taking into account oil changes take ALL the factors that affect the change interval into account. There is simply nothing more accurate than the GM oil life monitor.

Start another post about DexCool if you want to argue. With millions and millions of vehicles on the road successfully using DexCool it is an excellent product. Like anything, it can be misused and misrepresented....and blamed for things that are not it's fault. DexCool does an excellent job of long term corrosion protection...people tend to overlook engine failures, cooling system component failures, gaskets rotting out, etc... due long term corrosion damage due to silicated coolants that loose their corrosion protection. This is especially true in all aluminum engines. It is difficult to "prove" since , if the damage never occurs, it is difficult to prove it would have without DexCool but it would have been there. The world is a better place for DexCool.
 
quote:

Originally posted by bbobynski:
The trouble is that none of those other methods for taking into account oil changes take ALL the factors that affect the change interval into account. There is simply nothing more accurate than the GM oil life monitor.

Start another post about DexCool if you want to argue. With millions and millions of vehicles on the road successfully using DexCool it is an excellent product. Like anything, it can be misused and misrepresented....and blamed for things that are not it's fault. DexCool does an excellent job of long term corrosion protection...people tend to overlook engine failures, cooling system component failures, gaskets rotting out, etc... due long term corrosion damage due to silicated coolants that loose their corrosion protection. This is especially true in all aluminum engines. It is difficult to "prove" since , if the damage never occurs, it is difficult to prove it would have without DexCool but it would have been there. The world is a better place for DexCool.


If this is true, then why is GM going to a different coolant?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mulaka:

quote:

Originally posted by bbobynski:
The trouble is that none of those other methods for taking into account oil changes take ALL the factors that affect the change interval into account. There is simply nothing more accurate than the GM oil life monitor.

Start another post about DexCool if you want to argue. With millions and millions of vehicles on the road successfully using DexCool it is an excellent product. Like anything, it can be misused and misrepresented....and blamed for things that are not it's fault. DexCool does an excellent job of long term corrosion protection...people tend to overlook engine failures, cooling system component failures, gaskets rotting out, etc... due long term corrosion damage due to silicated coolants that loose their corrosion protection. This is especially true in all aluminum engines. It is difficult to "prove" since , if the damage never occurs, it is difficult to prove it would have without DexCool but it would have been there. The world is a better place for DexCool.


If this is true, then why is GM going to a different coolant?


What different coolant...?? DexCool is still the OEM factory fill coolant...!!
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mulaka:
Supposed to change to something called Zerex G-05 starting in 2006.

Possibly there is a different supplier or something..???...that I have not heard about. All of our 2006 engine testing is with DexCool so I would be very surprised if DexCool wasn't the coolant of choice. We are finishing the validation testing on our 2006 supercharged Northstar engine which is a pretty demanding situation for coolant and oil due to the power level and the Texaco DexCool is still the coolant.


Besides...even if it was to change...would that be an idictment of DexCool...??? DexCool has been around for a decade already....possibly an improved formulae is on the horizon..?? Just because it changes doesn't mean the original DexCool wasn't good or that the OAT corrosion inhibitors are being abandoned.
 
bb,
What about other antiwear agents that work as well or better than ZDP but cost more? I'm thinking of some of the compounds of moly, boron, antimony, calcium, and maybe others? I know that the phosphorus and sulfur content of oil will continue to be reduced, so there go the -thio- compounds (sulfur) and -phosphate compounds.

Will the GM OLMs have to be reprogrammed for these new formulations?


Ken
 
Bee-Bee,

I'm having a hard time keeping up on your posting because it's in so many different threads - but don't stop because of my lame inability to keep up!

I appreciate your sharing, based on real world testing, on what works for GM and why. It beats the pants off the guesses and speculation that we sometimes see here.

Keep it up!
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ken2:
bb,
What about other antiwear agents that work as well or better than ZDP but cost more? I'm thinking of some of the compounds of moly, boron, antimony, calcium, and maybe others? I know that the phosphorus and sulfur content of oil will continue to be reduced, so there go the -thio- compounds (sulfur) and -phosphate compounds.

Will the GM OLMs have to be reprogrammed for these new formulations?


Ken


The GM oil life monitor will generally follow the GF3/GF4/GF? oil requirements for oil life. As the oil specs improve to take into account/force the use of the more expensive anti-wear compounds it will be recalibrated as it is calibrated today for each specific engine and application. Since the GF standards are the OEM defacto requirements they will pretty much set the stage I would guess for oil life monitor calculations.

One concern is the cost of the oils as the specs improve. It will get more and more expensive per quart to meet GF5 and beyond so it opens the door for cheaper alternative oils that would not meet the GF requirements but that customers would buy instead. This is not without precedent as some people ***** today about having to use Mobil 1 in the cars spec'd with it!! In Europe, the oil prices are universally high so it is easy to market a more expensive oil but in the US there will always be that element that wants the least expensive oil....so....the standard for the GF requirements will have to take that into account as well as the fact that the OEM must use the GF standards for factory fill oil to take advantage of the fuel economy improvement for CAFE purposes. You would not want to make the GF oils so expensive that people stopped using them and loose the protection and loose the fuel economy improvement. So, there are a lot of factors involved with the improved anti-wear additives and their implementations.
 
quote:

Originally posted by bbobynski:
Whether you like it or not, GM comes up with something good, that works and you just cannot accept it. Too bad.

Too true!!!

JMH
 
Good post, thanks.

As for ZDDP depletion and the OLM - first of all I agree it happens, no dispute. But a few questions/comments:

1) It doesn't appear linear over the OCI or over the life of the engine. How is this accounted for in the OLM? (I didn't see it mentioned as a variable, but I could have missed it)

2) Doesn't the starting amount of ZDDP effect the algorithm? Or is the calculation based on a fairly low concentration for a safety margin?

3) I assume the other sacrificial AW/boundary agents are just secondary to the algorithm - again as a margin.
 
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