3.1L V6 LIM Gasket Replacement

[benjamming]

I have a '94 Grand Am GT w/ ~ 193k miles that is leaking mainly externally but a little internally per UOA (coolant additives only at last OCI). A lot has been soaked up this weekend in my garage by an old refrigerator box so I consider it not driveable. The gaskets were replaced at ~ 113k miles but with only the 2nd iteration kit. I have the newest revision from Fel-Pro. It is the PermaDryPlus gasket kit p/n MS 98004 T which also comes with the black RTV sealant for the ridge where the front & rear of the IM contact the block. I also have coolant, spark plugs, & serpentine belt remover loaner tool. A few questions:

1) The ends of the pushrods should be coated with prelube GM p/n 1052356. What is this lubricant? Is engine oil an acceptable replacement?

2) GM p/n 12345739 is sealant for the LIM bolts. Is Permatex 2A or the black RTV sealant that came with the kit a good replacement?

3) Is it difficult to remove the EGR pipe from the exhaust manifold? Is some sort of "rust off" product necessary? Should PTFE tape be used on the threads when installed? I'll also take this opportunity to check all the EGR passages as the check engine light is on in regards to this area.

4) Does anyone actually relieve fuel system pressure with gage J 34730-1? Is loosening the fuel filler cap enough? I've never used this gage when replacing the inline fuel filter. Of course, I don't always do everything correctly, hence the question.

5) Is it really necessary to remove the right engine mount? I also don't have engine support fixture J 28467-A. Is this a specific tool to replace a wood block & jack?

6) What is a good degreaser for the sealing surfaces? IPA or denatured alcohol?

7) Are new bolts required anywhere assuming that I don't break any? Also, I thought that there were new torque values, but the instructions with gasket kit match the values in the service manual.

The water pump was replaced ~ 177k miles.
I'll also replace the ATF, filter, & transmission cooler lines to hopefully address an ATF leak at the cooler (lower hose must be removed to actually access the lower ATF cooler line).
I may have the alternator tested when out, we'll see.
Pictures will also be taken (to help me get it all back together

).

 

[WishIhadatruck]

I can't answer most of your questions but one of my Haynes manuals once told me to disconnect the fuel pump electrical connector and run it till it shut off on its own. That eliminated the fuel pressure, or most of it. I was replacing the motor in a Corsica, 3.1L V6. Something I hope to never do again.

 

[kingrob]

I'll answer as best I can from my experience:

1. For the push rods I've always used Hi-temp wheel bearing grease, if anything. I'm not sure if motor oil would be a good choice or not.

2. In my experience any kind of Threadlocker should suffice.

3. The bolts, if torqued down correctly last replacement, shouldn't be too difficult. As a preliminary procedure just spray them down with any good penetrating lube. Be careful not to strip them if they are a hassle to remove.

Take this time to clean the EGR valve real good using carb cleaner or kerosene. This may solve your check engine light problem. Blow it out with compressed air or just let it air dry really well before re-install.

Just use some teflon tape on the Lim bolt threads.

4. Taking off the fuel cap should sufficiently de-pressurize the system (it's all I've ever done anyway).

5. I've seen some set-ups that require removing the engine mount and some that don't. My Buick, for instance doesn't absolutely require this but my Oldsmobile did. If so, a jackstand with a block of wood over it should work.


6. My personal procedure is to spray it down with carb cleaner and clean the mating surface. Then use WD-40 for the stubborn deposits. Wipe down and go have a beer or a smoke. Run my finger back over the surface to feel any invisible imperfections. If you have to do any scraping, use a flat tipped screwdriver with electrical tape wrapped around the edge of the blade.

7. As a general precaution I like to get a set of replacement bolts before I start. For two or three bucks it's really worth having a new set in there.

You don't have to remove the sparkplugs to get at the lower intake, but if you've got the new plugs go ahead and throw them in there. Same for the valve cover gaskets, now would be the time to replace them if they've never been done before. Getting to the back cover (where the leaks usually begin) is fairly impossible while the motor is stationary.

Also, the thermostat (if yours isn't the kind that ends at the top hose) is near the back of the block obscured by the exhaust. If you didn't do it when you did the waterpump then do it now, likewise it's a pain to get to without removing flanges etc.

 

[Buffman]

For any kind of RTV sealants use ULTRA COPPER or "THE RIGHT STUFF" Best two options right there. Let the stuff cure overnight rather than just immediately putting car back into service.

Blue Loctite should suffice.

 

[benjamming]

The EGR valve was cleaned when the code was set to no avail. I'll clean the EGR pipe this time but I don't see that doing any good.

The right engine mount will have to be removed to get to the bottom (3rd & final) bolt on the power steering pump.

The spark plugs are due now anyway so they'll be replaced.

The rocker cover gaskets are included in the kit so they have been removed. They will be cleaned along with the manifold in industrial solvent.

Pictures below are sorta current. Next steps are to remove the right motor mount, power steering pump, & then the alternator. After that is to remove the fuel rail which is where I am stuck.

 

[onion]

Not sure how I missed this. I've done several of these... lot of little tips and advice would do you good, but I really want you to remember one thing:

NEVER NEVER EVER EVEN THINK ABOUT CRANKING THE ENGINE OVER UNLESS/UNTIL YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT ALL PUSHRODS ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACES.

The exhaust and intake pushrods are different lengths. If you get one swapped, then valves will hit pistons and you've suddenly added hundreds of dollars and days' worth of labor to the job. So be careful. As a final check (once the engine is back together), you can CAREFULLY turn the engine over with a ratchet- if a pushrod has been swapped, it'll 'clunk' to a stop... then you can investigate and see what you screwed up.

Originally Posted By: benjamming
I have a '94 Grand Am GT w/ ~ 193k miles that is leaking mainly externally but a little internally per UOA (coolant additives only at last OCI). A lot has been soaked up this weekend in my garage by an old refrigerator box so I consider it not driveable. The gaskets were replaced at ~ 113k miles but with only the 2nd iteration kit. I have the newest revision from Fel-Pro. It is the PermaDryPlus gasket kit p/n MS 98004 T which also comes with the black RTV sealant for the ridge where the front & rear of the IM contact the block. I also have coolant, spark plugs, & serpentine belt remover loaner tool. A few questions:

1) The ends of the pushrods should be coated with prelube GM p/n 1052356. What is this lubricant? Is engine oil an acceptable replacement?


Engine oil is fine.

Quote:
2) GM p/n 12345739 is sealant for the LIM bolts. Is Permatex 2A or the black RTV sealant that came with the kit a good replacement?


The long bolts are the only ones that could possibly leak- and they have sealing washers made on to them. Sealant isn't a big deal... I don't think it's really necessary. But a thin coat of RTV on those seal washers wouldn't hurt anything. You'll also want to put locktite on the threads. I recommend red.

Quote:
3) Is it difficult to remove the EGR pipe from the exhaust manifold? Is some sort of "rust off" product necessary? Should PTFE tape be used on the threads when installed? I'll also take this opportunity to check all the EGR passages as the check engine light is on in regards to this area.


WD40 will do the job if the bolts are rusted. Not sure where you would use thread tape in this area- sounds like a bad idea to me. But use anti-sieze on those bolts.

Quote:
4) Does anyone actually relieve fuel system pressure with gage J 34730-1? Is loosening the fuel filler cap enough? I've never used this gage when replacing the inline fuel filter. Of course, I don't always do everything correctly, hence the question.
Just remove the cap, push in the schrader valve if you don't mind making a mess. You'll make a mess anyway if you pull the fuel rail.

Quote:
5) Is it really necessary to remove the right engine mount? I also don't have engine support fixture J 28467-A. Is this a specific tool to replace a wood block & jack?


Yes, you have to remove it, and yes, you can support the engine with a wood block and jack under the pan.

Quote:
6) What is a good degreaser for the sealing surfaces? IPA or denatured alcohol?


I prefer brake cleaner.

Quote:
7) Are new bolts required anywhere assuming that I don't break any? Also, I thought that there were new torque values, but the instructions with gasket kit match the values in the service manual.


GM will happily sell you new bolts for around $4 per bolt. They're identical to your bolts, but with locktite on them. Just clean your bolts and use red locktite.

I'd just go with the torque values that come with the gasket set. The new torque procedure from GM may work fine with the new-style GM gasket, but I would go with FelPro's recommendations since you're using their gaskets.

Quote:
The water pump was replaced ~ 177k miles.
I'll also replace the ATF, filter, & transmission cooler lines to hopefully address an ATF leak at the cooler (lower hose must be removed to actually access the lower ATF cooler line).
I may have the alternator tested when out, we'll see.
Pictures will also be taken (to help me get it all back together

).

 

[benjamming]

Onion,

Thanks for your comments.

You say that I will make a mess IF (emphasis mine) I pull the fuel rail. Do you mean that the fuel rail doesn't have to be pulled? I don't see a way around it. How would you specifically recommend this be accomplished? Write slow since I read slowly & comprehend even slower.

I will gladly take all those other little tips & advice since we got "the big one" out of the way (which I was very aware of but thanks anyway).

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
The EGR valve was cleaned when the code was set to no avail. I'll clean the EGR pipe this time but I don't see that doing any good.

The right engine mount will have to be removed to get to the bottom (3rd & final) bolt on the power steering pump.

The spark plugs are due now anyway so they'll be replaced.

The rocker cover gaskets are included in the kit so they have been removed. They will be cleaned along with the manifold in industrial solvent.

Pictures below are sorta current. Next steps are to remove the right motor mount, power steering pump, & then the alternator. After that is to remove the fuel rail which is where I am stuck.


What sort of scan tool did you use to check the codes? I've never found any convenient way of checking the codes on my '94 Corsica (same OBD 1.5 system).

These engines tend to clog the EGR passages with carbon. You'd do well to not only make sure that the pipe is clean, but also the passage in the lower intake. I've had to dig them out with a coathanger wire. That'll definitely set a code.

As I'm sure you've figured out, the right engine mount is kindof a P.I.T.A. You'll have to remove the mount and that aluminum bracket, then the power steering pump and alternator. Only then can you even THINK about removing the lower intake.

The fuel rail is a huge pain to remove. After 15 years, those o-rings are stuck tight. Oil will help... but there's no easy way to remove it. There will be prying, weeping, and gnashing of teeth... and you very well might break something.

The good news is that you don't really have to remove the fuel rail. If you just remove those two little bolts that hold it to the intake, you can flex it enough in each direction to get a 1/4" drive socket and extension onto the bolts. That's what I'd suggest if you can flex the rail far enough- and usually you can.

Disconnect the fuel lines on the quick-connect end. You don't want to mess with the other end... way too much trouble. For some reason, gasoline makes those o-rings amazingly sticky and difficult to remove.

While you're in there, I'd strongly suggest that you replace the oil pump drive o-ring. It's cheap, fairly easy to replace, and takes care of a very common and problematic oil leak on these engines. GM has a new-style brown o-ring that lasts longer and seals better than the old one (which will be crispy by now). To remove the oil pump drive: First remove the intake and the hold-down clamp, then clamp vice-grips on the drive and pull up. Some beating and/or prying will likely be required.

Also, when you remove the lower intake, you'll have to disconnect a heater hose pipe on the driver's side close to the thermostat. The plastic tabs WILL break. You'd do well to just go ahead and buy a fitting- they're about $10 at Autozone.

When I remove the pushrods, I take a shoebox and cut 12 slits in the lid, set the rockers in order in the shoebox (marked for direction/location) and push the pushrods through the slits in the lid. Keeps everything relatively clean an in order.

 

[onion]

Quote:

These engines tend to clog the EGR passages with carbon. You'd do well to not only make sure that the pipe is clean, but also the passage in the lower intake. I've had to dig them out with a coathanger wire. That'll definitely set a code.


Ummm... I meant to say "upper intake".

 

[addyguy]

No offence, but that engine looks pretty nasty and sludged. Once all is said and done, might want to think about auto-Rx'ing it....

I know it has 193k miles on it, but we have seen pics here of a Baretta motor w/30ok miles w/o a spot of dirt in it - you could still see all the little honeycomb holes!

 

[benjamming]

onion,
The code reader was borrowed from a mechanic I go to when I don't want to or can't do the job. I don't know the brand or model.

addguy,
That's part of why I posted the picture.

I do plan on doing a treatment of ARX after this repair is completed. I did a treatment at ~ 145k.

 

[addyguy]

I'm suprised if you've done a treatment already that you're seeing this much build up...coolant must really wreck the oil, and deposits 'cook' onto the engine over time...

I think you've posted UOA's on this engine - you've used a fair bit of GC in it, haven't you?

 

[benjamming]

onion,
Thanks also about the oil pump drive o-ring tip. I'll get one at the stealership. However, it will probably be a couple weeks before I can work on the car again due to being de-gall bladdered.

addguy,
I ran & posted the results of (2) 7500 miles OCIs with GC Green. They concluded at 175,273 (Mar-2007) & 182,791 miles (Jan-2008). Yes, coolant really does wreck the oil which in an unusual way shows hot tough these engines are if caught early enough. The car still uses only a negligible amount of oil over 7500 miles. I have never checked compression though. That would be interesting...

 

[bobfather99]

My brother and I did the intake repair on my sis-in-law's 96 Monte Carlo 3.1, and had the EGR problem fixed while we were dirty.....

EGR wasnt clogged, the passage was. I had to "coathanger" her car too. If you have this problem, you may need small gun-cleaning brushes or a stiff wire...

Im pleased to say her engine looked extremely clean(for 179k)
The oil is Mobil 1 5w30, AC Delco filter, on a 6k OCI.

 

[benjamming]

What did you use to clean which passages?

 

[benjamming]

Well, I'm finally back working on this car.
The fuel rail just pulled off the intake pretty easily. Doesn't appear to be any damage.

The right motor mount was actually pretty easy w/ a 1/2" ratchet. It appears to be in good shape.

I have everything apart & ready to start cleaning. I've sprayed the LIM with AMSOIL throttle body cleaner & letting it soak. Next, I'll try brake cleaner.

Onion,

Is this the fitting that you said would have to be removed? The plastic tab did indeed break. Solution was to disconnect at the rubber heater hose which needed replacing anyway. Wow, what a pain. I still haven't got it removed from the firewall yet but do have the spring clamp removed.

I bought the new brown oil pump drive o-ring from the dealership. Does it go under the plug on the side close to where the thermostat would be shown in the picture below? It has 1 bolt. If so, how does this come out? If not, where is the oil pump drive? I thought they used to run w/ the distributor but no distributor on this car.

How in the heck do I remove the final bolt on the alternator shown below? I'm ready to cut it & replace w/ fully threaded bolt if need be.

General pictures

I thought about using a q-tip soaked in IPA to clean the intake & exhaust valves since it evaporates fairly easily. Or would brake cleaner be fine? Brake cleaner is also explosive & flammable but should evaporate in a day or 2 I reasoned. Any thoughts?

 

[onion]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
Well, I'm finally back working on this car.
The fuel rail just pulled off the intake pretty easily. Doesn't appear to be any damage.


Congratulations. Those usually kick my a$$.


Quote:

The right motor mount was actually pretty easy w/ a 1/2" ratchet. It appears to be in good shape.

I have everything apart & ready to start cleaning. I've sprayed the LIM with AMSOIL throttle body cleaner & letting it soak. Next, I'll try brake cleaner.

Onion,

Is this the fitting that you said would have to be removed? The plastic tab did indeed break. Solution was to disconnect at the rubber heater hose which needed replacing anyway. Wow, what a pain. I still haven't got it removed from the firewall yet but do have the spring clamp removed.



Yes, that's the fitting. The snap-in connector for the heater hose pipe. You can get a new one at Autozone for about $10 in the Help section. Or I've also used a 5/8" compression X 1/2" NPT fitting.

Quote:


I bought the new brown oil pump drive o-ring from the dealership. Does it go under the plug on the side close to where the thermostat would be shown in the picture below? It has 1 bolt. If so, how does this come out? If not, where is the oil pump drive? I thought they used to run w/ the distributor but no distributor on this car.


Yes, that part in the picture is the oil pump drive. Remove the bolt and hold-down. Grab the thing with vice-grips... wiggle & pull. The old o-ring will be crispy. When you go back together, put some grease on the o-ring and in the bore for easy assembly. It might take a few tries to get the thing stabbed in there, as both the gear teeth and the hex-shaft have to align. Not that difficult, but you might have to make a few attempts.

Quote:
How in the heck do I remove the final bolt on the alternator shown below? I'm ready to cut it & replace w/ fully threaded bolt if need be.


Hmmm... I dunno. Mine goes in the other way. I suspect that your options will be to either remove the entire bracket (likely a huge pain) or cut & replace the bolt. I'd probably do the latter.

Quote:


I thought about using a q-tip soaked in IPA to clean the intake & exhaust valves since it evaporates fairly easily. Or would brake cleaner be fine? Brake cleaner is also explosive & flammable but should evaporate in a day or 2 I reasoned. Any thoughts?


I clean out engines with brake cleaner all the time. Works fine. I know this goes without saying amongst us oil-nerds... but I assume you will be putting fresh oil in before re-starting the vehicle... and will be changing it again fairly soon thereafter?

 

[onion]

Got to thinking about that alternator bracket- I've had mine off before (when I re-sealed the timing cover). And it isn't THAT big of a deal. Probably quicker than a trip to several auto parts stores (as the proper 12mmm X 1.75 bolt might be hard to come by).

 

[StevieC]

Good work bud... On another note when you have it back together I would seriously think about doing and engine clean up via the oil. looks like a little bit of buildup is going on.

I would use Auto-Rx but there are other additives on here that BITOG-ers speak highly about like Seafoam or MMO.

If you are going to use the Auto-Rx I would run it for a minimum of 5K Miles for the cleaning/rinse phases and just change the filter in between and top-up. This works better IMO and will work fine for this engine as it is one of the easier GM engines on oil.

 

[benjamming]

I forgot to mention that the upper intake manifold EGR passage was completely clogged. I cleaned it with a coat hanger. That EGR code should go away when it is all back together.

How does the snap-in connector work? Do you squeeze the plastic tabs & pull the metal pipe out? Does AutoZone have the snap-in connector as well?

The alternator was installed with the bolt coming in from the wrong side, even the shop manual shows it coming in from the other side. I have no clue how the shop did that w/o a lot of extra work. One of the studs was removed that holds the bracket to the block. The lower one wasn't removed b/c the pushrod came out while removing the LIM. However, I would like to fix this on my time table instead of when the alternator goes out at an bad time. The idler bracket will have to be removed as well it appears (3 bolts?).

I was really happy yesterday at lunch when I got to this point.