FS 2500

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: daves66nova
so, out of all these brands, which is the most inexpensive bypass setup?



For what application? The truck we are talking about in this thread is quite different than a typical passenger car...

Its all relative...a $10k rebuild trumps the cost of most bypass filters. Just to put that into perspective...

As for the filters, its all about the same...you might save in initial cost and spend $$ in proprietary elements, or you might spend more up front and have cheap elements (my Gulf Coast for example uses a $1.50 roll of paper towels every 10k miles).

One thing no one pointed out is the fact these can be had on eBay now and again...I bought my GCF for 1/3 of what they cost new from eBay...

IMO, you can't look at cost as heavily as other factors...you want a good filter (one that filters well) and one that is easy to change (bypasses don't work well if they aren't changed, if they are hard to change the owner won't service it as often)...

 

[daves66nova]

i'm looking for a regular setup for a car.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: daves66nova
i'm looking for a regular setup for a car.



I would actually look at one of three setups...a Frantz (or similar), Amsoil EaBP90, or even the Baldwin would make a good choice for a smaller application.

Personally I would take the Frantz because its small, proven, and the elements are cheap and easy to find.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: daves66nova
i'm looking for a regular setup for a car.


What's your annual mileage?

If you're a 3k/3m type ...Frantz/MG. TP ..CHEAP. Takes about 24k miles to get a mature sump is used as intended (5quart sump). Downside, short element life ..but typically finer filtration.

You can, outside of a few plumbing pieces, be into a EaBP90 with cheap mount for $50+/- ..fittings and hose on you. Again, cost effectiveness depends on mileage driven. You'll be changing it out ........hmmm......in about 18months minimum.

You can make your own if you can fit a 15"x4" cylinder. Cotton wound media is very common.

 

[Steve S]

Engines usually have the most wear during the warm up cycle there are people who claim thinner oil stops the wear, then there are people who claim a bypass gives long engine life .From my experience and others that really know, the engines that last the longest are the ones that have the least warm up cycles per mile. The salesman car ,the commercial courier. The over the road semi truck engine. How many miles get put on the truck? Most people install a bypass filter. Use a premium oil filter .Run syn oil and change the filters and oil every 5,000 miles and do a UOA then trade their vehicle in at 89,221 miles. If this is for your commercial truck I would install the proper sized filter other wise no.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Originally Posted By: DocB
The FS-2500 has a very heavy, sturdy bowl/cannister that is held on by a bolt over the filter cartridge. I like this aspect of its design because it is mounted under the truck(F-350) and affords protection. Also, the mfg. claims that the filter element removes moisture from the oil. It is a well designed and constructed unit.



While this is true, the unit may not be physically capable of keeping up with the demands of an engine of this size...from what I have read, the FS2500 was designed to target the light truck market, not the OTR truck fleet business.

Running an undersized filter will cause excessive element changes and/or poor performance because the filter simply can't keep up.




Might want to give them a call then. They are PRIMARILY targeting the OTR truck market. Maybe they didn't understand that they were having to filter a sump with 11 gallons in it instead of a pickup truck engine. They have a lot of test data and testimonials in their kit information from Class 8 truck and bus operators. Even the website gives detailed information on installation of the the kits in large trucks. They are suggesting 10K mile filter changes and UOA's for the typical semi tractor. Would seem the filter is up to the task.

I didn't consider the Gulf Coast Filter since it takes 2-3 gallons for EACH filter change on a class 8 truck. Heck, you are effectively changing your entire oil capacity in 6 months. Is it any wonder the advertisements on XM trucking channel have owners going over 300K without an oil change. True, they didn't dump the sump, but they have replaced all the oil several times in that many miles. I guess that would be ok if running a typical off the shelf oil, but if the person is using a Group IV synthetic, there would be no real cost savings. Something like the FS2500 or the OPS-1 only take a quart or two of replacement oil. Heck, if my dip stick wasn't on "add", I wouldn't even put in the makeup oil at that point. And a lot of owners of these two systems are getting as far as the Gulf Coast owners between actual dump sump oil changes. Maybe not getting the whole picture, but seems that the FS2500, Amsoi BP, or OPS-1 are more cost effective than the GCF.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Originally Posted By: DocB
The FS-2500 has a very heavy, sturdy bowl/cannister that is held on by a bolt over the filter cartridge. I like this aspect of its design because it is mounted under the truck(F-350) and affords protection. Also, the mfg. claims that the filter element removes moisture from the oil. It is a well designed and constructed unit.



While this is true, the unit may not be physically capable of keeping up with the demands of an engine of this size...from what I have read, the FS2500 was designed to target the light truck market, not the OTR truck fleet business.

Running an undersized filter will cause excessive element changes and/or poor performance because the filter simply can't keep up.




Might want to give them a call then. They are PRIMARILY targeting the OTR truck market. Maybe they didn't understand that they were having to filter a sump with 11 gallons in it instead of a pickup truck engine. They have a lot of test data and testimonials in their kit information from Class 8 truck and bus operators. Even the website gives detailed information on installation of the the kits in large trucks.




They've changed then...the FS2500 was initially targeted towards the diesel light truck market. That was several years ago though...and again, *IMO*, its small.

Doesn't mean they didn't try to market it a different way, to a different market.

 

[wcbcruzer]

I'm running a Frantz right now. I'm not sure how well it filters compared to other bypass filters. Heck, I don't even know if it's doing what it's supposed to, but assuming it does... As stated, the downside to the Frantz is the short life of the filter. It gets kinda old changing it out so often. I've even been thinking about just taking it off and either leaving it off, or going with an Amsoil setup (because it's cheaper than the FS2500 and easier to install than the centrifugal filters). Only thing that concerns me about the Amsoil filters is the longevity. They claim it's good for up to 60k miles. If it really filters down to 2 microns absolute, I don't see how the filter can last that long. Maybe someone can shed some light on that? I was actually going to ask that on here at some point.

 

[Gary Allan]

Normal Service Life b:When used in conjunction with AMSOIL motor oil and an EaO or Donaldson Endurance filter, EaBP Filters should be changed every other full flow filter change up to 60,000 miles. When used with other brands of motor oil or full flow filters, the EaBP filter should be changed every other full flow filter change. AMSOIL recommends using oil analysis when extending oil drain intervals.

SERVICE LIFE
AMSOIL Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel & Marine Motor Oil is recommended for extended drain intervals in unmodified(1), mechanically sound(2) vehicles or equipment as follows:

Personal Light Truck Diesel Engine Service

• Normal Service(3) -- Up to 25,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, or longer based on oil analysis.

• Severe Service(4) -- Up to 15,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first, or longer based on oil analysis.

• Replace AMSOIL Ea™ full flow oil filter at the time of oil change up to 25,000 miles (other brands at standard OEM* intervals).

Commercial or Fleet Vehicles, Long-Haul Trucks, Marine Craft, RV, Off-Road Equipment

• Replace Donaldson Endurance™ or AMSOIL Ea™ full flow oil filters at the time of oil change up to two times (2X) longer than the OEM* standard interval, not to exceed 60,000 miles in long-haul trucks.




I looked at my neighbor's Cummins owners manual. The regular service interval is 15k ..the severe 7.5k. He does about 25k/year. In his case it would mean every year changing the oil and filter and every other year for the EaBp ..or 50k

 

[TiredTrucker]

The FS2500 filters are cheaper by 1/2 than Amsoil filters. Their recommend is 10K mile changes and a oil sample.

One thing that came up on a discussion on XM radio trucker's channel.... If the bypass filter is filtering down to 2-3 micron level, then why is there a need to change the full flow filters either every bypass filter change or even every other bypass filter change? If the full flow is catching so much Larger particles, then maybe a need for a new engine and no bypass going to do you any good at that point. Now I will concede that maybe a paper element full flow might deteriorate in a relatively short period, but most high quality full flows are now fiber based.

FS2500 is taking this route in stating change the bypass at 10K, but no change of full flow until UOA shows a need to do a complete oil change. Some on the show were stating they generally just changed the full flows at a 6 month interval regardless of number of times they needed to change bypass.

I am sure there is some reasoning behind doing a full flow filter change like Amsoil recommends, but if the bypass is doing it's job, it does beg the question as to why the full flow is clogging up enough to deserve a change out.

RE the comment on the Amsoil setup being cheaper than FS2500. Maybe only slightly. With FS2500, everything that is needed to do the install for your particular engine/chassis combination is included.... custom fit parts made for your application including fittings, stainless steel braided lines, oil sampling fittings, and simple installation instructions that even my non-mechanically inclined wife could follow. When I was researching Amsoil setup, the have the unit with filter, but you are on your own to piece meal the parts for the install. I was able to install the FS2500 on my '06 International w/ Cummins ISX and be up and running in about an hour. And I had never even done any project like that before.

The Amsoil setup might be a "little" cheaper for the install cost, but the time savings with the FS2500 setup more than made up for the difference. My time is valuable enough I didn't want to spend time getting custom lines made or rounding up various fittings and researching possible options on install locations or engine oil ports to use. I liked Amsoils bypass filtration, but not enough to justify the effort. Now if Amsoil would start selling custom kits based on engine/chassis combinations, they would have a real winner that would make truck fleets and Owners sit up and take notice and give Amsoil a serious look. If they do have these kits already, they are doing a great job of keeping that information away from a lot of dealers and off the web site.

I got a complete FS2500 custom fitted kit with 13 filters for around $1K. I am not sure that I could get everything I need for an Amsoil setup with 13 filters for enough cheaper if I include the time savings for the FS2500. But then, this is a business decision, not a hobby project for a personal vehicle.

 

[deeter16317]

For an application this large, I may have went the Luberfiner direction...Luberfiner filters cost around $80/each, but are only replaced based on flow/UOA. They are similar to the EaBP, only much larger...specs look very good.

As for changing the fullflow, I too asked this question at one point. You are correct in thinking the fullflow should be doing little, if anything. The main concern that was brought up was the durability of the filter itself...would the components in that filter survive the extended FCI (read: that many heat cycles)?

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I would offer that the time you've saved with the FS2500 will be trumped for the rest of your ownership with more frequent filter exchanges and the make up oil required. At 10k/interval you're using up 13 filters at a much higher clip than the Amsoil spin-on.

Any bypass filter setup is a trade off somewhere in the mix.

As far as custom kits...well, that's limited to the pickup diesels.

Many of your fleet operators have bypass filtration OEM installed ..and can even specify brand. That reaches outside of Amsoil's ability to market.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, I would offer that the time you've saved with the FS2500 will be trumped for the rest of your ownership with more frequent filter exchanges and the make up oil required. At 10k/interval you're using up 13 filters at a much higher clip than the Amsoil spin-on.

Any bypass filter setup is a trade off somewhere in the mix.

As far as custom kits...well, that's limited to the pickup diesels.

Many of your fleet operators have bypass filtration OEM installed ..and can even specify brand. That reaches outside of Amsoil's ability to market.


Maybe, but if only I can get Amsoil filters at around $17-18 each like I can get FS2500 filters. I only use one at a time, whereas the Amsoil setup uses 2 canisters and each one is twice (BP110) the cost at even the preferred customer price. So I would be able to utilize 4 FS2500 filters for the cost 2 BP110's and probably be in close equality of the life cycle of the units... I use one at a time versus 2 at a time for Amsoil BP. Give or take a few bucks either way. The result is we are quibling over a few cents one way or the other. Regarding makeup oil for a filter change... about the same over the life cycle for either system. I only have about a 1 1/2 quart that is lost in the change with FS2500.

There is a big move amoung class 8 owner/operators to put on bypass systems. A casual listening to the truckers channel on XM would show this. Gulf Coast, OPS-1, and FS2500 have met the wave while Amsoil just floats out to sea. I am a big fan of most Amsoil products, but if they choose to ignore a few hundred thousand possible truck applications, who am I to care. Fleets on the other hand could really give a rip about bypass filtration in most cases. They cycle the trucks on a revolving door basis and trade them off before even the OEM warranty is out. They don't really care about how clean the oil is as long as they meet the OEM requirements to stay in warranty. Let the next owner worry about engine wear.

This may be out of Amsoil's ability to market to fleets that spec OEM installs, but that shows Amsoil's limited vision. Fleets are not the prime target.... owners of a single or only a few tractors are the target. Individual owners tend to keep equipment longer and are willing to install aftermarket items like bypass oil systems that will give them greater equipment longevity and lower maintenance costs while tweaking individual tractor fuel mileage. Fleets will cycle the trucks out the door at around 350-400 thousand miles (well within OEM warranty). Most individual owners will keep trucks to a million or more miles. This not unrealistic. I have taken a couple of trucks to over 1 million miles and still did not have any major repairs.

If Amsoil and their respective dealers chose to miss this opportunity, I really don't care. I am not a dealer so I have no dog in that hunt. But I do have time and cost considerations in choosing and installing add on's so I went with the system that provided the best cost return ratio, ease of installation, etc. Amsoil's bypass didn't meet the test in that regard, so it is not on my equipment. If an "early bird get the worm" dealer was to put together simple install kits and market them to the trucking owner op community, he could probably generate a nice profit.

Oh well...

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I only use one at a time, whereas the Amsoil setup uses 2 canisters and each one is twice (BP110) the cost at even the preferred customer price. So I would be able to utilize 4 FS2500 filters for the cost 2 BP110's and probably be in close equality of the life cycle of the units... I use one at a time versus 2 at a time for Amsoil BP.


This part I don't quite get. No one mandates a Dual Guard

You've kinda moved 2 EaBP 110's to equaling 2 FS2500 filters in the way you've worded it. The OEM OCI without a bypass should be something like 20k.

The initial cost is way out of whack too ..but if that's what you want ..that's what you want. It would be a stretch to turn an Amsoil installation into half of the cost you quoted.

Best of luck to you

 

[TiredTrucker]

Well, according to Amsoil's site.... my 44 quart ISX would require a dual BP110 setup. FS2500 requires only 1 filter. Now does it add up?

I would only use 1 FS2500 at a time as opposed to Dual BP110's at one time. Since EACH BP110 is twice the cost of a FS2500 filter, I could use 4 FS2500 filters in sequence before I got to the cost of the first two BP110's. Even though I am changing the FS2500 filter more frequently, the total mileage interval for the four filters would be comparable to a set of BP110's.

Didn't realize this was so complicated.

Either way, since FS2500 had a complete installation kit that was an easy install (less than an hour) as opposed to the Amsoil and its dealers not having the vision to market installation kits to the larger segment that would be inclined to use bypass filtration, it was a no brainer to go with the FS2500. Some of us have business' to run and not the time to play around with third party stuff and experiment on installation options.

But then, Amsoil is primarily marketing to the small scale consumer market. Not very many car and pickup owners have even given bypass filtration a thought. On the other hand, a large majority of commercial truck owners have at least investigated the options. With well over 2 million trucks on the road on any given day, the ship is pulling away from the dock and leaving Amsoil to stand on the shore waving goodbye. Now, Amsoil and its dealers will have to fight upstream against the bypass filtration setups already in the pipeline for commercial truckers. I wasn't going to wait for them to get their collective act together. Do like the oil and will continue to use that.

One only can imagine the number of bypass setups Amsoil could have sold to the commercial truck market. Not my problem.

 

[Steve S]

The full flow filter is the most important of the oil filters. Now that I know it is for a commercial vehicle have you looked at the spinner filters {Centrifical?} How about the Harvard Brand of bypass filters. Is there a bypass filter on the truck now?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Didn't realize this was so complicated.


Normal Service Life b:When used in conjunction with AMSOIL motor oil and an EaO or Donaldson Endurance filter, the EaBP should be changed every other full flow filter change up to 60,000 miles. When used with other brands of motor oil or full flow filters, the EaBP filter should be changed every other full flow filter change. AMSOIL recommends using oil analysis when extending oil drain intervals.

So ...err..your OEM scheduled oil and filter change is 5k ..then one of your FS2500 filter every other time. I see.

I didn't think it was that complicated...

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Didn't realize this was so complicated.


Normal Service Life b:When used in conjunction with AMSOIL motor oil and an EaO or Donaldson Endurance filter, the EaBP should be changed every other full flow filter change up to 60,000 miles. When used with other brands of motor oil or full flow filters, the EaBP filter should be changed every other full flow filter change. AMSOIL recommends using oil analysis when extending oil drain intervals.

So ...err..your OEM scheduled oil and filter change is 5k ..then one of your FS2500 filter every other time. I see.

I didn't think it was that complicated...


I guess not. It is not that complicated when you are not aware of the OEM service intervals relavent to the discussion. Where did I say the OEM scheduled oil change is 5K? Actually, OEM service interval is 25K per the Cummins service manual. Let's stay focused... this is a Class 8, 15L Cummins ISX. Not your neighbors puny little gasser in his pickup. Even my Jeep Libery 2.8L Diesel has an OEM service interval of 12K with oil analysis to back that up. I only stated I would change the FS2500 filter at 10K and take a sample. Not in any post did I even mention 5K OCI. It would be the height of insanity to change oil in an ISX at 5K. It takes 46qt of oil to do the job. Of course if you are Bill Gates, I guess you could justify changing oil so often.

Amsoil may state to change the full flow at service interval then the bypass every other time. Sounds rediculous when looked at deeper. If the bypass is doing such a great job at filtering the material down to 2-3 microns, then why is there a need to change the full flow that often? Especially if it is one of Amsoils high class Ea oil filters. Filtration Solutions doesn't even suggest changing the full flow until the samples indicate that a complete oil change needed. If I need to change the full flow as often as Amsoil states, then I would either be wasting my money or, if the filter actually needed changing, have a bigger problem than any bypass is going to help. Amsoil is the ONLY bypass filter setup that suggests changing the full flow so often. None of the other bypass units on the market expect you to dump that much money changing the full flow filters.

But through all this, Amsoil reveals more of its marketing. It is purposefully keeping its focus narrowed to the personal consumer. Is it any wonder that Amsoil hasn't made greater inroads into the commercial sector. Even though they have good lube products. In some areas, they are staying on the fore of lube technology. On others they can't seem to get out of the 20th century.

For a site sponser and dealer, you ought to get up to speed on what is going on in the real world if you really want to be successful in your endevours. That is unless you plan on only selling the one case at a time. Bulk sales is where it's at for someone to really make it a business. And if you don't know your market, you will never capture it.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Where did I say the OEM scheduled oil change is 5K?


You didn't. I just back figured it using your style of reasoning. You're saying that it's cheaper to use the FS2500 at the cost of their filters vs. Amsoil. You also said that you're changing them out every 10k.


Now you're telling us the OEM recommendation ..which is 25k (that's about normal for that size engine).

So ..you're servicing your FS2500 at TWO AND ONE HALF TIMES the OEM schedule for the full flow and the sump.

That's 2.5 filters per OEM scheduled event.



This is opposed to 1/2 that amount of bypass filter service with the Amsoil.

The full flow filter recommendation from Amsoil is simply because it's not their product. Easy enough to reason there.


You've reasoned stuff very carefully to defend your choice ..but you've configured it all wrong.

You're going to do 5 service events beyond just topping up using your FS2500 compared to Amsoil's recommendation.


Again, if it makes you happy ..more power to you. Enjoy the service intervals. I'll attempt to get up to speed with that

The basic difference in terms of filtration is simple. If you're willing to use tp/pt or other cartridge like filters ..there are choices. If you want a spin-on ..you can get the mediocre OEM offerings ..or you can get an Amsoil.

I can configure a 1um cotton wound canister bypass filter for the same costs as Amsoil and a HECK of a lot cheaper than the FS2500. Anyone can. They just need the room to fit it ..which you have. Filters are about $10 each ..and will probably last 2X as long as yours and probably comparable with Amsoil's spin-on.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

The basic difference in terms of filtration is simple. If you're willing to use tp/pt or other cartridge like filters ..there are choices. If you want a spin-on ..you can get the mediocre OEM offerings ..or you can get an Amsoil.




LuberFiner offers a larger spin-on...they are equivalent to Amsoil (in filtration), with a longer service interval IIRC.

I also don't get your comment about the TP...a single roll of TP (read: the model 0-1 GCF) is good for 10k on a Class 8 truck, and doesn't even get into a 0-2 model or larger GCFs.

There are options...each has its own set of parameters, and it is not really correct to lump them together because they use a similar media.