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#1231182 - 09/06/08 04:11 PM Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
White Paper - Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants


Since there has been so much discussion and questions about MTL's, here is a white paper that I hope answers some questions.


 Quote:
Most GL5 differential and GL4 Manual Transmission oils contain sulfur-phosphorous EP packages. GL4 does NOT refer to any specific viscosity, but it refers to a level of AW/EP protection for the gearing and bearings in a transmission. GL4-rated oils contain about 40% to 60% of the EP additives that GL5 oils contain.

Both differential and manual transmission fluids use chemical compounds that subdue or inhibit the corrosive effects of sulfur and phosphorous such as calcium, magnesium, boron, potassium or other basic compounds. Emulsifiers, corrosion and rust inhibitors also are included to do their respective jobs.

GL5 differential lubes use friction modifiers to reduce mechanical and fluid friction and add some anti-shudder friction modifier for limited slip, both very different chemical compounds.

Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same Friction Modifier chemicals as differential lubes.

Most manual transmission "specific" fluids (GL4) contain about 40% to 60% of the EP additive of differential lubes (GL5) with inactive or buffered sulphurs. GL4 has come to infer a gear lube with the above percentages of EP additive. The exception of course is ATF fluid used in some of the newer transmissions.

Therefore, both lubes contain the same EP additives, just in different strengths or additive ratios.

Ever since the synchromesh-type fluids appeared on the scene (such as the GM Synchromesh fluid), drivers have had better shifting due to better synchro engagement, attributed to the specialized friction modifier used in these lubes. This specialized friction modifier is better for metallic and composite synchros in terms of shifting and life.

Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier specifically designed for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same chemical compounds as do differential lubes.

A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal.

You also have to consider the viscosity of the fluid that the transmission was designed for. The spectrum now ranges from ATF to 75W90 viscosities and therefore a synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.
brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials.

Current MTL GL4 viscosites are:

1. ATF Series - Type; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL 4's)
2. Synchromesh Series -Type; 9.3 - 9.5 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)
3. 75W85 Series-Type; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)
4. 75W90 Series-Type; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).

MTL specific lubes we're developed for manual tranny's and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes. A differential lube may not kill your tranny, but it is not the optimum lube for it. A diffy 75W90 (GL5) usually has a higher viscosity than does an mtl in the same advertized weight.


Edited by MolaKule (09/06/08 04:21 PM)
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#1231196 - 09/06/08 04:54 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
simple_gifts Offline


Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 9014
Loc: Middlesex County CT
Great summary for people like myself, Thank you.
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#1231208 - 09/06/08 05:18 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25909
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL 4's

Why is that? Do these fluids not require stronger additive packages or is the low viscosity index preventing the introduction of stronger additive packages?

FYI... my car's manual tranny requires an ATF-like fluid, so I'm using RP Synchromax in it...
http://www.royalpurple.com/prod-pdfs/synchromax-ps.pdf

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#1231225 - 09/06/08 06:03 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: simple_gifts]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
White Paper - Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants


Since there has been so much discussion and questions about MTL's, here is a white paper that I hope answers some questions.

 Quote:
Synchromesh Manual Transmission lubes we're developed specifically for manual transmissions and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes.

A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal, brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials.

Most Differential and Manual Transmission oils contain sulfur-phosphorous EP packages. GL4-rated oils usually contain about 40% to 60% of the amount of Differential lubricant EP’s. Therefore, both MT and Differential lubes contain the same EP additives, just in different strengths or additive ratios.

GL4 does NOT refer to any specific viscosity, but it refers to a level of AW/EP protection for the gearing and bearings in a transmission, so GL4 has come to infer a gear lube with the above percentages of EP additive. The exception of course is ATF fluid used in some of the newer transmissions.

Both differential and manual transmission fluids use chemical compounds that subdue or inhibit the corrosive effects of sulfur and phosphorous such as calcium, magnesium, boron, potassium or other basic compounds. Emulsifiers, corrosion and rust inhibitors also are included to do their respective jobs.

Differential lubes use friction modifiers to reduce mechanical and fluid friction and add some anti-shudder friction modifier for limited slip; both very different chemical compounds.

Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier specifically designed for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same chemical compounds as do differential lubes.

Ever since the synchromesh-type fluids appeared on the scene (such as the GM Synchromesh fluid), drivers have had better shifting due to better synchro engagement, attributed to the specialized friction modifier used in these lubes. This specialized friction modifier is better for metallic and composite synchros in terms of shifting and life.

You also have to consider the viscosity of the fluid that the transmission was designed for. The spectrum now ranges from ATF to 75W90 viscosities and therefore a synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.

Current MTL GL4 viscosities are:

1. ATF viscosity Series; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL4's)

2. Synchromesh viscosity Series; 9.3 - 9.6 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)

3. 75W85 viscosity Series; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)

4. 75W90 viscosity Series; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).

A differential lube may not kill your manual transmission in your light truck or car, but it is not the optimum lube for it. A differential 75W90 (GL5) lubricant usually has a higher viscosity than does an mtl in the same advertised weight.

Many if not most GL5 fluids rated for differentials may also be rated as MT-1. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil®, state the following:

“Recommended for use in differentials, manual transmissions and other gear applications requiring any of the following specifications: API GL-5, MT-1, MIL-PRF-2105E, Dana SHAES 234 (Formerly Eaton PS-037), Mack GO-J, or the differential (hypoid) gear oil specifications from all domestic and foreign manufacturers such as GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler. Can also be used in axles where an API GL-4 lubricant is recommended.”

This MT-1 rating refers to use in heavy duty truck transmissions, and as such, does NOT necessarily mean that this fluid will function properly in a light truck or car synchromesh transmission.


Edited by MolaKule (09/06/08 06:06 PM)
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#1231228 - 09/06/08 06:14 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
 Quote:
Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL 4's

Why is that? Do these fluids not require stronger additive packages or is the low viscosity index preventing the introduction of stronger additive packages?


ATF fluids contain a specific additive package for Automatic Transmissions, and not for manual transmissions. Most ATF specifications for use in mtl's, IMHO, were to improve cold weather shifting, and not to improve wear.

Look at the VOA's for clean ATF fluids and compare to clean MTL analysis for example. There is a big difference in the AW/EP additive levels between the two.

ATF's contain AW's, whereas mtl's and differential lubes contain
both AW's and EP agents.

Viscosity and Viscosity Indexes are two different animals.


Edited by MolaKule (09/06/08 06:22 PM)
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#1234273 - 09/11/08 07:14 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 477
Loc: VA
so an atf viscosity series should work well in a np231? chain driven transfer case no clutches or anything just a pump. If so who makes a low visc syncromesh mtl? thanx mola
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#1235023 - 09/12/08 08:54 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Taylor]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Many transfer cases do use ATF, while some like Toyota, use a 75W90 weight lubricant.

As of right now, I cannot recommend any 7.0 cSt lubricant for an mtl.
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#1235051 - 09/12/08 09:46 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 477
Loc: VA
yea its spec'd atf, after reading this i was thinking about putting in some mtl. so no one makes that visc or? would penz be to thick?
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Serving Central VA Since 1910

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#1235064 - 09/12/08 10:26 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Canawler Offline


Registered: 05/05/08
Posts: 437
Loc: York, PA
 Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Many transfer cases do use ATF, while some like Toyota, use a 75W90 weight lubricant.

As of right now, I cannot recommend any 7.0 cSt lubricant for an mtl.


Anything wrong with Royal Purple's Synchromax? I'm currently running it in my atf spec'ed mtx as it's the only one I could find in an atf visc. (7.7cst)

Is there as much of a benefit to running an mtl in an atf spec'ed transfer case as there is to running an mtl in a mtx if the t-case has no synchros? An atf wouldn't provide the EP qualities that I assume would be good for a t-case. Would normal engine oil be any better than atf?
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#1235470 - 09/13/08 05:43 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Canawler]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
I have no idea what the additive package or VOA might show, so as of now, I cannot comment.
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#1235568 - 09/13/08 10:25 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest


Edited by MolaKule (09/13/08 10:26 PM)
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"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#1236554 - 09/15/08 08:12 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 477
Loc: VA
Is that still being made? If so its like $110/gal.......
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Standard Produce Co.
Serving Central VA Since 1910

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#1236555 - 09/15/08 08:13 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Taylor]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 477
Loc: VA
are you aware of any other thin MTL's?
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Serving Central VA Since 1910

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#1250057 - 10/04/08 03:56 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Taylor]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 477
Loc: VA
I dumped my ATF for some RP synchromax the other day no noticeable differences yet. NP242 (T/C)
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Serving Central VA Since 1910

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#1391931 - 03/03/09 07:10 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Taylor]
wannafbody Offline


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 895
Loc: PA
I have heard of issues with RP sychromax in the T56 tranny
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#1392406 - 03/04/09 09:41 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Taylor]
deeter16317 Offline


Registered: 12/07/07
Posts: 1339
Loc: SE, PA
 Originally Posted By: Taylor
I dumped my ATF for some RP synchromax the other day no noticeable differences yet. NP242 (T/C)



I have 178k on my 04.5 with the NP271...been running synchromax since 50k...actually shifts better than with ATF. My NV5600 hates the thinner Synchromax, and responds best to Redline MTL.

I believe the older bottles of Synchromax indicated you could run it in place of ATF in manual gearboxes and transfercases.
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2004.5 Dodge 2500 Cummins

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#1393070 - 03/04/09 07:14 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: deeter16317]
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
With a mechanical xfer case requiring atf, a quality mtf/mtl can only be an improvement. With the amount of wear that I've seen in some xfer cases, I just don't understand why an ATF was required, MPG or wear?

How soon we forget? One of the original MTFs was the BG syncroshift. Torco also has an MTF.
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#1399694 - 03/11/09 01:28 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: unDummy]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Have you seen any better wear with the Versatrac fluids? A lot of GM TC's use them.
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#1404721 - 03/16/09 10:13 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Or AutoTrac fluids as well?
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#1406337 - 03/17/09 07:25 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
Don't forget that Autotrac was the bandaid for the shudder caused by DexronIII, which is what those TC's were original filled with.

Concerning versatrac, I haven't seen any in the shop. But, since most are under warranty, I expect that most failures will be cared for by the dealer.

BTW, a real TC, IMO, doesn't use clutches. I'll take a gear'd xfer case with mechanical manually shifting any time. And, ALL that I've seen that failed were usually lubed related failures, that can be prevented.
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Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt the person doing it.
Your automaker lied!
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#1406361 - 03/17/09 07:40 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: unDummy]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Me too, I prefer the older chevy Burbs with the gas piston in the front diffy and the gearshifting TC, but these AUTO 4 Wheel drive Transfer cases (as in my '08 TrailBlazer) are really nice on icy and snowy roads.

I recommend changing the TC fluid after a tough winter.


Edited by MolaKule (03/17/09 07:41 PM)
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#1407583 - 03/18/09 09:35 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
wannafbody Offline


Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 895
Loc: PA
I've heard of some issues with with RP synchromesh fluid in T56s.
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#1411098 - 03/22/09 10:34 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: wannafbody]
Bror Jace Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 4878
Loc: Saratoga, NY
What issues with RP Syncromax in manual transmissions? I'm not a fan of the brand, but I figure it's gotta be better than ATF in those units that spec ATFs and no one makes a comparable fluid that I know of.

Mola, you don't recommend RP Syncromax for manual transmissions and transfer cases that spec ATFs? Please PM me if you think your answer will start trouble. ;\)


Edited by Bror Jace (03/22/09 10:34 AM)
Edit Reason: punctuation
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#1411381 - 03/22/09 04:49 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Bror Jace]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
No problem. It's that I have never had any experience with it nor run comparisons against other lubes.
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#1477412 - 05/26/09 05:50 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
kballowe Offline


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 996
Loc: East Central Missouri
Hmmmmmm. The kid just changed the lube in the manual tranmission in his '01 Miata due to a torn boot and some amount of leakage...... M1 75W-90 "LS".

He claims that it doesn't shift nearly as well as it once did.....

Now we know why.

Thanks

Is this a great forum or what ???

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#1480305 - 05/29/09 07:52 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: kballowe]
cven Offline


Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 277
Loc: ohio
From what I understand some 6-speeds have paper (cellulose) syncros and most synthetic oils do not work with the paper very well. (It may eat them up) I can't recall what years and such have the paper syncros but in my 2000 z-28 6-speed (paper syncros from what I could find out? YMMV) I put pennzoil dex-III (dino) in it and what I drained out (FF) sure looked like dex-III to me.

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#1497199 - 06/12/09 11:24 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: cven]
AdRock Offline


Registered: 06/05/09
Posts: 727
Loc: Texas
There was a thread on Stangnet that went for tons of pages. It's still there to read. There were problems with the 1-2 shift in the TR3650's. After a good while some Tremec engineers finally came in and gave some info.

Apparently the GM SynchroMESH is not good for the Tremec trannies. However they said that SynchroMAX was ok to use. They also said to drop the capacity from 3.9 qt. to 3.2. This is some stuff that Ford really never bothered to tell anyone.

I believe the same MESH vs MAX difference also applies to the T56.
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#1679393 - 11/20/09 10:40 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: AdRock]
hooligan24 Offline


Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 903
Loc: wa state
how about mixing 50/50 ATF and MTL for a manual trans that specs ATF4? it would make a slightly thicker viscosity and also add in some EP additives. I will try to get ahold of Dave at RL to see what he says about mixing their different fluids...
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#2701321 - 07/31/12 10:03 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Bump for the people with Ford DCT's.
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#2813685 - 11/25/12 02:16 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
GL-4 is a level of protection rating for gears and is generally applied to manual transmissions and to manual transaxles that do not have hypoid designs.

The older formulations in GL-4 MT lubes had about 1200 to 1500 ppm of phosphorous and zinc or ZDDP as the primary Anti-Wear additive. Some simply contained a lower level of phosphorous-sulfur EP additives like those used in differential (GL-5) lubes.

GL-4 MT lubes don't need a strong EP additive level like the phosphorous-sulfur EP levels in a differential lubricant because of the type of gearing and gear-tooth loading.

If you care to read the White Papers you will see that gear lubes, whether GL-4 or GL-5, have more than just Anti-Wear (AW) or Extreme-Pressure (EP) additives.

ALL Gear lubes contain anti-rust, anti-foam, and Metal Deactivator chemistries.

Metal Deactivator chemistries are chemical compounds that keep an additive component or contaminant from reacting with metals in the gear box.

The important thing to keep in mind about the Specific Application GL-4 MT lubes is that they contain the proper friction modifier chemistries to assist with better shifting and synchro engagement.

Personally, I relegate GL-5 rated lubes to hypoid differentials only.
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#2813713 - 11/25/12 02:49 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Used by Permission of the Author for BITOG

Protection-wise, most Manual Transmisson Lubes are rated with an API protection rating of GL-4 because of the type of gearing used as will be explained later.

I think manual (or Stickshift or Standard) transmissions are more fun to drive than automatic transmissions. Manual transmissions require more driver interaction than do automatic transmissions. You can’t talk on the cellphone, or eat, or text when you have to shift gears.

In this paper we examine the internal mechanisms of the manual transmission and the effects of the lubricant’s viscosity and additives. We are discussing light truck and passenger vehicle manual transmissions only. We will not discuss OTR or heavy-duty transmissions which use a different type of lubricant.

A modern gearbox is of the constant mesh type, in which all gears are always in mesh. The exception is the reverse idler gear which will be explained later. This constant mesh and the cut of the gears insure a rather quiet transmission. In any one gear, only one of these meshed pairs of gears is locked to the shaft on which it is mounted. The others are being allowed to rotate freely; thus greatly reducing the skill required to shift gears. Most modern cars are fitted with a synchronized gear box, although it is entirely possible to construct a constant mesh gearbox without synchromesh, as found in motorcycles for example.

Some manual transmissions are integrated with differentials to form a “Transaxle.” The differentials here are usually NOT the hypoid types found in larger vehicles, but are of the spider gear configuration.

Going from the top of the transmission case downward, we have the shifter mound which contains the shift lever and linkages. The shifter will have a seal or boot at the top with an additional gasket to keep the lubricant from flowing out when slung by the gearing. Below that are two shafts, one the input shaft and the other being the output shaft. The input shaft is splined to the clutch for power connect or disconnect. The output shaft goes to a universal joint, then to the driveshaft (a hollow “torque” tube), and the driveshaft connects to the differential via another universal joint.

An illustration of a basic manual transmission is found here, so exercise the shifting as we discuss the mechanisms (not a perfect illustration but makes the point):

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission4.htm

Shifter Assembly: The gears resting on the top shaft, the input shaft, are locked onto that shaft and rotate at the same rpm as the engine. The bottom output shaft has synchronizers “splined” to this shaft, so they can move around as the gear ratio is changed. The gears on the output (bottom) shaft are allowed to rotate freely on the output shaft or on small roller or “needle” bearings, depending on the horsepower transmitted and the design. The output shaft will rotate at various rpms depending on gear selection. In first gear, for example, you want low output shaft rpm and high torque.

The shifter moves the associated linkage which connects to the shifter forks. The linkages position the shifter forks, and effectively “programs” the shifter forks in order to select the required gear ratio. I.E., for each shift lever position, the shifter forks are moved around to drive the splined synchronizers on the output shaft. The shifter forks have a bore so they can slide on the guide rods. There is a specified clearance between the shifter forks’ bore and the shifter fork guide rods. Lubricant effects: Too high a viscosity lubricant and the shifting will be hard and sluggish. More force will be required to go from one gear to another. Too thin an oil and the forks will wear, the clearances will increase, and the shifting will become sloppy and uncertain. The correct mix of base oil viscosities is needed here to insure good cold weather and hot weather shifting. Synthetics excel here because of their high viscosity index.

Synchronizer: The locking mechanism for any individual gear consists of a collar on the shaft which is able to slide sideways so that teeth or “dogs” on its inner surface bridge two circular rings with teeth on their outer circumference; one attached to the gear, one to the shaft. (One collar typically serves for two gears; sliding in one direction selects one transmission speed, in the other direction selects the other) In our illustration from above, the bottom or output shaft has splines that mate with the synchronizer “collar.” The synchronizer collar moves transversely on the splines, positioned by the shifter fork. When the rings are bridged by the collar, that particular gear is rotationally locked to the shaft and determines the output speed of the transmission. In a synchromesh gearbox, to correctly match the speed of the gear to that of the shaft as the gear is engaged, the collar initially applies a force to a cone-shaped brass clutch which is attached to the gear, which brings the speeds to match prior to the collar locking into place. The collar is prevented from bridging the locking rings when the speeds are mismatched by synchro rings also called blocker rings. Notice, before locking and speed synchronization, a lot of shearing takes place at the interfaces and for the reasons given above. Most synchronizer materials are of brass, but newer synchronizers can be made of strengthened graphite composites. Lubricant effects: A special Friction Modifier (FM) additive is incorporated into the base oil to allow just the right amount of friction before engagement. I.E., the FM gives rise to a specific coefficient of friction (COF) to allow engagement without “crunching.” Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF) DO NOT have these specialized FM’s. Note, the specialized FM used in manual transmissions is NOT the same FM used in Limited Slip Differentials, nor is it the same FM used in Automatic Transmissions, nor is it the same FM used in engine oils. It is important to understand that there are different FM chemistries for different automotive applications!

Bearings: Lubricated bearings are used to reduce friction between rotating parts. The older Munice transmissions, for example, used brass or sintered brass sleeve bearings or bushings. Most modern transmission bearings today, as can be seen by the links given below, are of two main types 1) Roller or needle bearings, and 2) ball bearings. Ball bearings or tapered roller bearings are usually used at the shaft ends to resist radial and transverse loads. Smaller roller or pin bearings are used inside the driven gears that reside on the output shaft. Lubricant effects: Depending on the horsepower transmitted and the size of the bearings, the lubricant’s kinematic viscosities range from 7.5 cSt (ATF-range) to 14.5 cSt (equivalent to a light 75W90 gear lube) given at 100C. The anti-wear/Extreme pressure additives keep wear in check as they rotate in their races. Anti-corrosion additives keep the anti-wear/Extreme Pressure additives from attacking the synchronizers, and anti-rust additives keep any moisture from creating rust on the steel components. For lower horsepower drive trains, the lubricant must be thin enough to penetrate the cages in the pin/roller bearing areas. For higher horsepower drive trains, the lubricant must maintain a thick film in order to protect the bearing surfaces. Too thick a lubricant will cause poor cold weather performance and loss of mpg, while too thin a lubricant will cause undue wear. Of course, the lubricant is also used for cooling. The lubricant transfers heat from the bearings and gearing to the case where it is transferred to the air.

Gearing: Most gear types in manual transmissions are of the helical type, which because of the cut, reduce noise and vibration. Due to their angular cut, thrust loads are transmitted to the shafts on which they reside. The gears on the input and output shafts are usually produced in one integrated piece, called “gear clusters, “ or the cluster gear assembly. You will notice the only gear that is actually moved is the reverse idler gear. This is moved into position to mesh with the small reverse gear on the input shaft so you can “back up” or reverse direction. At higher reverse speeds, this gear will usually give off the familiar “reverse” whine. Lubricant effects: Being in constant mesh, they are dipping in the oil bath and slinging the oil up to the shifter assembly. Since they transmit torque, they must have an anti-wear/Extreme Pressure additive in the lubricant in order to reduce wear. The slipping and rolling action of the gear teeth causes localized high pressures and heating. The anti-wear/Extreme Pressure additive forms a protective but complex ferrous film at the contact surface to protect from galling and other wear mechanisms. Other components such as thrust washers, flat thrust bearings of the roller type, and shims may also need cooling, lubricant film, and anti-wear additives as well.

Rebuilding manual transmissions usually require only a modest rebuild kit consisting of bearings, synchronizers, and seals unless the transmission has been abused or the wrong lubricant has been used. In that case, gear teeth need to be examined for any chipping, galling, breakage, or other signs of problems.

(Transmission Kits).
http://www.manualtransmissionkits.com/nv4500_bk308ws_bearing_kit_rebui.htm

Here are some individual transmission parts layed out for Jeep transmissions but is typical of others.
http://www.4wd.com/Transmission-and-Transfercase/Manual-Transmissions.aspx?t_c=69&t_s=239

Images of Manual Transmissions, both external and internal:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=manu...ORM=IGRE#x0y810

If you are going to modify or rebuild your Manual Transmission, I highly recommend this book or equivalent::
http://www.mre-books.com/transmissions/rebuild_and_modify.html

Passing Thoughts

One variation on the Manual Transmission is the “Automated Manual” using a dual clutch. Some people consider many of the Honda Automatic Transmissions simply automated manual’s as well.
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/auto-manual-transmission.html

A long winded History and Summary but without the in-depth knowledge of internal mecahnics-vs-lubricants:
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/Manual_transmission/en-en/

I like this link; it contains online MT manuals for classic Chevy’s:
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/trans/index.htm
_________________________
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#3024750 - 06/06/13 01:20 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Manual Transmission Fluids (MTL) Fluids containing MTL Application Specific Additive Packages with GL-4 Ratings

Choosing a Manual Transmission fluid can be confusing.

Many times there is simply a specification referenced and no information about the viscosity of a fluid at 100C, where the oil viscosity is documented at the higher testing temperature.

What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt




G. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 70W80.

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromeshs’

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS


H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt



I. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:

1. Amsoil MTG 14.5 cSt

2. Redline MT-90 15.6 cSt

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3074093 - 07/23/13 03:08 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Here is what application-specific (Dedicated) MTLs consist of:

1. Base oils of various types and viscosities to make a specific viscosity and have anti-shear properties

2. GL-4 Performance Improvement (PI additive package) chemistry which consists of the following
a) GL-4 anti-wear (AW) additives
b) anti-rust additive
c) copper and aluminum metal deactivator/buffering agent
d) anti-foamant
e) special friction modifier (FM)
f) dye


Application Specific = Dedicated.


Edited by MolaKule (07/23/13 03:09 PM)
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3197706 - 11/25/13 01:15 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Nederlander75 Offline


Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 860
Loc: Behind you, move over so I can...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
GL-4 is a level of protection rating for gears and is generally applied to manual transmissions and to manual transaxles that do not have hypoid designs.

The older formulations in GL-4 MT lubes had about 1200 to 1500 ppm of phosphorous and zinc or ZDDP as the primary Anti-Wear additive. Some simply contained a lower level of phosphorous-sulfur EP additives like those used in differential (GL-5) lubes.

GL-4 MT lubes don't need a strong EP additive level like the phosphorous-sulfur EP levels in a differential lubricant because of the type of gearing and gear-tooth loading.

If you care to read the White Papers you will see that gear lubes, whether GL-4 or GL-5, have more than just Anti-Wear (AW) or Extreme-Pressure (EP) additives.

ALL Gear lubes contain anti-rust, anti-foam, and Metal Deactivator chemistries.

Metal Deactivator chemistries are chemical compounds that keep an additive component or contaminant from reacting with metals in the gear box.

The important thing to keep in mind about the Specific Application GL-4 MT lubes is that they contain the proper friction modifier chemistries to assist with better shifting and synchro engagement.

Personally, I relegate GL-5 rated lubes to hypoid differentials only.




Mola, Im reviving this because I recently saw an RX8 UOA side by side of RL MT-90 versus Swepco 201 (GL4 MT specific 75w90 versus a GL5 general purpose 80w90) where the Swepco showed significantly less wear metal occurrence versus the RL. GL4 75w90 is spec'd by the OEM. I would expect that the GL5 or non MT specific to have generated more metals in the UOA given its not MT specific or GL4, Can you tell me what I might be missing here?

Thank you


Edited by Nederlander75 (11/25/13 01:16 PM)

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#3198877 - 11/26/13 04:02 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Mola, Im reviving this because I recently saw an RX8 UOA side by side of RL MT-90 versus Swepco 201 (GL4 MT specific 75w90 versus a GL5 general purpose 80w90) where the Swepco showed significantly less wear metal occurrence versus the RL. GL4 75w90 is spec'd by the OEM. I would expect that the GL5 or non MT specific to have generated more metals in the UOA given its not MT specific or GL4, Can you tell me what I might be missing here?


I haven' see the UOA's nor the age, driving conditions, and otherwise the history and backgrounds of these trannies so I cannot make a comment without that data.
_________________________
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#3199524 - 11/27/13 09:51 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Nederlander75 Offline


Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 860
Loc: Behind you, move over so I can...
Sorry, I was asking strictly theoretically. But I do understand.

Thank you

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#3205236 - 12/03/13 05:10 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Here is an updated list of MTLs:


Quote:
Manual Transmission Fluids (MTL) Fluids containing MTL Application Specific Additive Packages with GL-4 Ratings

Choosing a Manual Transmission fluid can be confusing.

Many times there is simply a specification referenced and no information about the viscosity of a fluid at 100C, where the oil viscosity is documented at the higher testing temperature.

What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt


G. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL (9.7 cSt)

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS

6. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF


H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt


I. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:

1. Amsoil MTG 13.9 cSt

2. Redline MT-90 15.6 cSt

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90


Edited by MolaKule (12/03/13 05:10 PM)
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3231410 - 12/29/13 09:06 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Updated Listing:

Manual Transmission Fluids (MTL) Fluids containing MTL Application Specific Additive Packages with GL-4 Ratings

Choosing a Manual Transmission fluid can be confusing.

Many times there is simply a specification referenced and no information about the viscosity of a fluid at 100C, where the oil viscosity is documented at the higher testing temperature.

What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:


Quote:
A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. Valvoline MTF Part Number 811095 9.2 cSt

G. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt


H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS

6. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF

7. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF

I. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt


J. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:

1. Amsoil MTG

2. Redline MT-90

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90



Edited by MolaKule (12/29/13 09:06 PM)
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3231891 - 12/30/13 01:24 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
jaj Offline


Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Does anyone here know the full story on B.5 above - GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid?

What I've read about it, and the applications that it's spec'd all indicate that it's the fluid formerly known as Dexron III with a new name (but without a new formula). For instance, it's GM's factory fill for the Tremec TR6060 in the Corvette and Camaro (among other models). FF used to be Dex III and before that it was Dex II. The same gearbox used by Ford and Chrysler are filled with Mercon V and ATF+4 respectively. Even Tremec themselves say "use Dexron III" in all their literature.

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#3233760 - 01/01/14 02:36 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
The grapevine info I got was that they increased the phosphorous AW component when they changed the labeling.

Since there are better application specific MTL fluids than DexronIII for MTLs, I don't know why anyone would use it in any MTL.
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#3234277 - 01/01/14 11:56 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
jaj Offline


Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 893
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The grapevine info I got was that they increased the phosphorous AW component when they changed the labeling.

Since there are better application specific MTL fluids than DexronIII for MTLs, I don't know why anyone would use it in any MTL.


From Tremec's website FAQ:

Q: What type of fluid does TREMEC recommended?

A: For all ... aftermarket models we recommend Dexron III ATF.

Q: Why use automatic transmission fluid in a manual gearbox?

A: Automatic transmission fluids provide the necessary protection and lubrication, while still allowing the synchronizer to function at its best.

Q: Why not use a synthetic fluid?

A: ... For peace of mind, remember that TREMEC conducts all of its OEM validation testing using conventional fluids without issue.

I trimmed out some extraneous references to transmissions that actually take MTL (one model number only) and a negative piece about synthetic fluids. Basically, if it's the cheapest Dex III ATF, then it's welcome in your Tremec. The thing that amazes me is that they are so adamant on ATF, when there are real GL-4 oils with better viscosimetrics and better anti-wear available.

Is it just a relentless commitment to the fluids that Borg-Warner chose back when these gearboxes were developed? Who knows! If I could find a GL4 that had the right friction characteristics, I'd give it a try. I've read that Ford's DCT fluid works in these gearboxes, but at $30 a quart, I'm not hot to buy five quarts just to give it a try (my TR6060 takes 4.2 quarts).

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#3234830 - 01/02/14 03:21 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Quote:
Is it just a relentless commitment to the fluids that Borg-Warner chose back when these gearboxes were developed? Who knows!


That's my belief as well.


Quote:
If I could find a GL4 that had the right friction characteristics, I'd give it a try. I've read that Ford's DCT fluid works in these gearboxes, but at $30 a quart, I'm not hot to buy five quarts just to give it a try (my TR6060 takes 4.2 quarts).


Check the fluids I listed under B. such as RP Synchromax.

Also try the new Valvoline fluid I had tested.


Edited by MolaKule (01/02/14 03:22 PM)
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3272731 - 02/06/14 03:58 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
This comment and response was on the ATF and Differential Forum but I thought it was appropriate to post here as well:


Quote:
Quote:
badtic: The Fuchs 75W-80 is GL-5 rated, not GL-4. The Fuchs straight 75W is their GL-4 offering.



Mola: Thank you but I am already aware of that. I know what the product literature says.

Yes, it a is GL5 rated lubricant which ALSO means, for this SPECIFIC PRODUCT, it is also backward compatible for GL4 applications.

This product is one of the few, and maybe the only current MTL lubricant that serves dual purposes; 1) as a manual transmission fluid, 2) as a differential fluid.

This fluid is used in common sumps, such as the Subaru systems, where a common sump serves two mechanisms, the manual transmission and the differential. Hence, this specific fluid has to have a MINIMUM protection rating of GL5.

It is also one of the few, and maybe the only current GL5 MTL lubricants that incorporates the needed friction modifier for smooth synchro operation.

It is also one of the few, and maybe the only current GL5 MTL lubricants that incorporates the needed friction modifier for smooth synchro operation.



Edited by MolaKule (02/06/14 04:10 PM)
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3377388 - 05/21/14 01:15 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Update on MTL's:

Quote:
Manual Transmission Fluids (MTL) Fluids containing MTL Application Specific Additive Packages with GL-4 Ratings

Choosing a Manual Transmission fluid can be confusing.

Many times there is simply a specification referenced and no information about the viscosity of a fluid at 100C, where the oil viscosity is documented at the higher testing temperature.

What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin MTF 2) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt
F. Valvoline MTF Part Number 811095 9.2 cSt

G. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt




H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF

I. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt


J. The next higher viscosity MTLs in the 14-15 cSt (75W90) range would be:

1. Amsoil MTG

2. Redline MT-90

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90
4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90
5. Ford XT-75W90-QGT (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)
6. Ford MOTORCRAFT® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3381947 - 05/27/14 06:13 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
WOULD A J2360 PRODUCT MEET the transmission requirement since j2360 spec is an international standard ?or it still would be harsh on synchro of some transmission?i know only one corp that extensively test transmission type damage for oxidation rust etc and its Allison but wouldn't it be overkill to use that oil .I mean the 300 hour copper corrosion test is one epic thing,but would that oil be the best for our transmission?
_________________________
Truck driver
Nissan versa note s 2014
Mechanicly inclined

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#3382263 - 05/27/14 03:41 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
The discussion here is focused on Manual Transmission Lubricants for Automobile and Light Truck applications.
_________________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3394417 - 06/10/14 10:11 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
benjy Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 158
Loc: pa
in my O2J VW 5 spd 2001 jetta i switched to Amsoil series 2000 prolly about 2005. after about 50,000 shifting became poor, could barely get into 5th gear 90 some thousand miles. trannys were known for syncro issues, i changed to MT-90 and shifting got better + better after 2,000 miles worked decent until i ripped the teeth off 5th gear, 30,000 later. got it rebuilt and shifted well until i traded at almost 200,000 miles still with MT-90. traded on a 37,000 mile TT O6M 6 speed, shifting a little rough i put MT-90 in it, shifts great, changed all the fluids due to age! i surely believe in MT-90

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#3486726 - 09/18/14 09:58 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Rand Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 7749
Loc: Barberton,Ohio
Since this whole topic is an epic resurrection of oldness.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and keep it going.

Most of the above doesn't apply to any awd subaru and some porche MT's as they are a transaxle and share the gear oil with hypoid gears.

as such they require a gl-5 which can cause poor shifting if you choose badly.


Some gear oils are dual rated gl-4 and gl-5 but almost always they will cause decreased shift performance if gl-5 isn't required.


Finally, its 2014 and some car manufacturers are going somewhat exotic. Many seem to have some OEM brew fluid that's 30$/qt. Sometimes a different one for different car models in their lineup.

Subaru starting in 2014 with their revised Forester MT
(6th gear added to older 5mt design IIRC)

Factory fills with Subaru Extra MT which is a 75w80 gl-5 MT oil.


Edited by Rand (09/18/14 10:00 PM)
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2015 Forester I-Premium 6MT


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#3487586 - 09/19/14 04:53 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Rand]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Rand
Since this whole topic is an epic resurrection of oldness.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and keep it going.

Most of the above doesn't apply to any awd subaru and some porche MT's as they are a transaxle and share the gear oil with hypoid gears.


Subaru starting in 2014 with their revised Forester MT
(6th gear added to older 5mt design IIRC)

Factory fills with Subaru Extra MT which is a 75w80 gl-5 MT oil.


Yep, I believe you are referring to this oil

Quote:
H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1.[ Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645
5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF



or this oil

Quote:
J. The next higher viscosity MTLs in the 14-15 cSt (75W90) range would be:

1. Amsoil MTG

2. Redline MT-90

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

4. Castrol Syntrans Transaxle 75w-90

5. Ford XT-75W90-QGT (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Ford MOTORCRAFT® Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS


All of these oils are synchromesh oils with either a GL-4 or GL-5 protecion rating.

Those synchromesh fluids with GL-5 protection ratings are normally used for tansaxles or driveline systems in which the manual transmission shares a "common" sump with the hypoid differential.

Been discussed in many threads.


Edited by MolaKule (09/19/14 05:00 PM)
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#3488523 - 09/20/14 02:40 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Some of The Differences between MTLs and ATFs:

The commercial additive suppliers have validated the PI packages for GL-4 service when used with specific base oils.

The important thing to consider here is differences between the PI packages and base oils for ATF's versus dedicated MTLs.

The PI package and base oil for ATF's start out with very low (some may say, "very thin") viscosity oils and use additive components for wet clutch applications. The PI package for an ATF has less than 18% of the Anti-Wear (AW) chemistry found in MTLs.

The PI package and base oil for MTL's start out with higher viscosity base oils, use additive components targeted for synchronizer assembly applications, and have about 5.5 times more AW chemistry than do ATFs.


Edited by MolaKule (09/20/14 02:41 PM)
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"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3493031 - 09/25/14 10:40 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
I have an 05 dodge 1500 with the 3.7 and getrag 238 six speed. It's spec is ap4 which is atf+4. My question is, can I mix synchromesh with atf+4 to achieve better wear protection and hopefully better performance? Thanks.

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#3493100 - 09/25/14 11:39 AM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: Wrought_Man]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Wrought_Man
I have an 05 dodge 1500 with the 3.7 and getrag 238 six speed. It's spec is ap4 which is atf+4. My question is, can I mix synchromesh with atf+4 to achieve better wear protection and hopefully better performance? Thanks.


You can, but synthetic fluids such as Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 Gear Oil or Amsoil MTF would be better choices in my opinion.
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"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." Thomas Paine smile

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#3493217 - 09/25/14 01:14 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
From my research atf+4 and gm synchromesh are both synthetic products. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Big plus for me is that they are very easily obtainable at most parts stores whereas redline etc you pretty much have to mail order and is pretty high priced compared to the others I mentioned.

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#3493335 - 09/25/14 03:43 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14637
Loc: Midwest
Pennzoil Synchromesh and ATF+4 are both blends of conventional (mineral) oils (majority) and some synthetic components (minority).

Another option is the Valvoline MTF Synchromesh (readily available as well) and AT+4.

I would use 75% MTF Synchromesh and 25% ATF+4. This shoould bring the viscosity up to about 8.7 cSt which is about halfway between the ATF and MTF viscosity. This will also get you the benefit of more AW and proper friction modification additives.


Edited by MolaKule (09/25/14 03:44 PM)
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#3494474 - 09/26/14 05:47 PM Re: Synchromesh Manual Transmission Lubricants [Re: MolaKule]
Wrought_Man Offline


Registered: 09/24/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Oklahoma, United States
I had already did a custom blend before I saw your recommendation of 75% mtf and 25% atf+4. So my mix was 1 qt syncromesh and 1.5 qt atf+4. Not sure what I drained out but it was pretty dark and smelled bad. On the first test drive it shifted better. I will go with the mtf next time but didn't see it on the shelf where I got the synchromesh. Thank you for your help!

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