Case/Cummins 4BT 790hrs. Delvac 1 - lead/glycol

[Extreme-Duty]

Hello,

finally got my first UOA done. It is from my parents' farm tractor, a '97 Case IH Maxxum 5120 Pro. They run it 1300 - 1400 hrs. a year for daily feeding and material handling and there is a lot of engine idling.

Some more details:

- I consider this Case 4T 390 engine to be much like a Cummins 4BT 3.9.

- A belt driven Wabco air compressor is connected to the lube system (I actually forgot to tell Terry).

- An OC takes about 11.7 Qt. This time it was 2/3 Delvac 1 CI-4 Plus and 1/3 CH-4.

- Oil consumed over this interval was about 1.6 Qt.

- Make up oil was 1.2 Qt Delvac 1 CH-4.

- Fuel consumption over this interval was less than 1000 gal. of B5 50 ppm sulfur diesel.

- Coolant: Caterpillar ELC. Withing 2400 hrs, the coolant level went 1 Qt (or so) low.

- Oil filter: Donaldson Endurance ELF 7349.

- Air filter: Donaldson long-life paper.

Here we go:

Except the viscosity brake down, glycol, TAN and lead reading, it is much better than I expected.

Can a different add pack in the European formula skew the glycol test? 0.84 is a lot.

Is a certain level of coolant consumption considered to be normal for HD applications due to evaporation etc.?

Comments please.

Regards,

ED

 

[D-Roc]

Terry doesn't give a guideline for the glycol amount...but there shouldn't be any. But there are other things to consider...Was the oil checked on a regular basis with a rag that may have had coolant on it, or was the sample taken in a container which may have had a small amount of contamination?
Considering how you mention your parents run the engine, it actually looks pretty decent, except the glycol is a little unsettling, and may have caused some of the wear.
Unfortunately it's not really practical to just start taking things apart to look for how 0.84 og glycol got in there...unless you can see something right away. (EG, it's your lucky day and you see a tiny coolant stain coming from the head).
If it were mine, I would run Delvac 1300 (dino) and a regular filter (for economic reasons) and run 1 or 2 shorter intervals making sure to be vigilant about oil checking and sampling practices, then send those in. If there is still glycol in there, and wear is getting a little more, then, yes. Time to start investigating for a mechanical problem.

 

[D-Roc]

That or even call or email Terry for more info. He is good to deal with. I sent in a UOA once and asked for clarification. He was great.

 

[George7941]

I assume the engine did not originally come with ELC.

Are you happy with the performance fo ELC?

I just switched over a 2004 Freightliner with a Mercedes 906 engine to Detroit Diesel Powercool Plus ELC.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Extreme-Duty - Considering the number of hours in use this is a very good report indeed. I would carry on with the current lubricant (it was replaced?) and monitor it after about 300 hours

As for viscosity - Delvac 1 5W-40 had a shift in viscosities during the two versions you are using. The 40C viscosity is IMHO the most important one to consider in a diesel and it is within "normal" parameters. As well the TAN/TBN balance is excellent

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Thank y'all.

@ D-Roc:

I got no clue on how we could have contaminated the sample. Toilet paper is what I use to wipe off the dipstick, my dad may have pulled the stick a few times using a rag, but none with coolant on it.

The sample bottle was one of those intended for lab use and lube samples as well, not one of Terry's. I used a PA-tube, usually found in air systems, to take the sample. A 4 - 5 Oz. were allowed to pass through it, before I held the bottle under.

Terry didn't say much about the coolant, he recommend to send in another sample after 200 hrs. Terry is in fact good to deal with, he really takes the time to provide good answers.

I suspect the head gasket to leak a bit, it is collecting a little dust on the out side, but I cannot tell for sure.

@ Doug

The oil and filter were changed at 790 hrs. If we really had all that glycol in it, it was about time. Do you really want me to go further with the TAN that high and a minor gap between TAN and TBN?

Have you ever had glycol in your Delvac 1?


@ George:

The system was cleaned at 3600 hrs and filled with Cat ELC. I have tested it a few times with Fleetguard stripes since. Nitrite and molybdate only dropped slightly. This non-wet-sleeved engine does not require SCAs though. The radiator core shows this waxy coating and that is just fine. We haven't yet replaced the water pump and I do not think the previous owner has.

At 3200 hrs. the radiator started leaking between the core and the upper tank. The solder was cracked and we bought a new radiator. Not sure whether it was poor workmanship, fatigue or corrosion related.

Btw, is your Powercool Plus nitrite free?

Whether an OAT is nitrited or not, I believe they are fine if the cooling system is maintained.

 

[Extreme-Duty]

What is the "normal" coolant consumption for HD engines, any experience?

The tractor has a recovery bottle, not a pressurized tank. Is evaporative loss an issue with either system?

I have heard of other Case IH 5100 series tractor with leaking head gaskets at 8 - 9000 hrs.

The B and C series Cummins engines do not require a coolant meeting CES14603, but is it likely that the head gasket would have lasted longer with these coolants?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Extreme_Duty - You said;

"@ Doug
The oil and filter were changed at 790 hrs. If we really had all that glycol in it, it was about time. Do you really want me to go further with the TAN that high and a minor gap between TAN and TBN?

Have you ever had glycol in your Delvac 1?"

My comments concerning the "current" lubricant meant Delvac 1 5W-40. I had presumed that it was changed at 790hrs!

The TAN/TBN balance is more than acceptable and I have run engines with a similar ratio for a much longer time. A TBN around 4 would be unacceptable to me

I have had traces of glycol in my Delvac 1 5W-40 filled engines from time to time and a typical condemnation limit is around where yours is at!

Hence my comment continue to run the current lubricant (Delvac 1 5W-40) but monitor it at 300hrs

 

[George7941]

Powercool Plus is a NOAT coolant. I think it is the exact same formulation as the Cat ELC. Powercool Plus does contain nitrite.

I don't think Cat ELC contains Molybdate, I could be wrong. SCAs should not be used with Cat ELC.

The 2004 Freightliner has a pressurized surge tank, and, in four years, the coolant level never dropped at all. I don't remember ever taking the surge tank cap off.

 

[D-Roc]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Extreme_Duty - You said;

"@ Doug
The oil and filter were changed at 790 hrs. If we really had all that glycol in it, it was about time. Do you really want me to go further with the TAN that high and a minor gap between TAN and TBN?

Have you ever had glycol in your Delvac 1?"

My comments concerning the "current" lubricant meant Delvac 1 5W-40. I had presumed that it was changed at 790hrs!

The TAN/TBN balance is more than acceptable and I have run engines with a similar ratio for a much longer time. A TBN around 4 would be unacceptable to me

I have had traces of glycol in my Delvac 1 5W-40 filled engines from time to time and a typical condemnation limit is around where yours is at!

Hence my comment continue to run the current lubricant (Delvac 1 5W-40) but monitor it at 300hrs


Hey Doug, that glycol value on the uoa (0.84) is that percent? If it was, would it be a percentage of the sample taken? Just trying to get an idea of the amount in the given value.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
D-Roc - Taken to conform as D2892 (DIN51375)

IMHO Glycol should always be considered along with other condemnation factors as a smaller number may also condemn the lubricant at the lower level if other factors are at play

If this was my engine I would be sampling again after 300hrs or so and monitor all other variables on the way. My engines rarely required coolant - but the chemical status of the coolant was checked monthly. The coolant was never changed during the vehicle's life in my hands - 1m kms (620k miles) or 4-4.5 years

My drivers had to log any "coolant" added between "formal" services. Many Drivers thing that the coolant expension tank should always be full. Adding water simply dilutes the mix as it pumped out when hot as the level is "corrected"

This type of thing is always a problem with employed Drivers although we always trained my employees in these matters at Induction - some however "always know best"

In my vehices the ratio of hours to distance was 1 hour = 80kms (50miles). This was off the distance recorder and the engine's hour meter

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Glycol, fuel and soot is in percent, so glycol is high. I will have the current fill analyzed later this year.

Again, about 1Qt. disappeared from the recovery bottle within 2400 hrs. (October 2006 - July 2008). If evaporation is a non issues, it is leaking, either to the outside, the combustion chamber or the lube system.

@ George

Cat ELC has nitrite and molybdate in it, it is the only of its kind commonly available in Europe, therefore made extra pricy. I thought Detroit does not allow nitrited OATs any longer, because they found out it could harm aluminum, sensors and so on. I will search some more information on that later on, if you would like that.

Where can I get unbiased information on this Cat ELC/Cummins compatibility concern?

Regards,

Extreme-Duty

 

[George7941]

Here is Cummins' concern about Texaco ELC

http://penray.com/images/TechBulletinCumminsNOAT.pdf

This article lists Powercool Plus as NOAT.

There are more interesting articles at penray.com

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Hello George,

thank you for this document. I have actually seen it before, but I had no idea where I found it years ago, because I forgot all about Penray. They are not necessarily unbiased on OATs, but the other documents on their site are interesting though. Btw, are the Detroit "need release" coolant filters made by Penray?

What I found these days:
Cummins approves TELC for B and C series engines.

Now, I need someone to confirm that the Case 4T 390 engine is a 100% Cummins 4BT 3.9 and that the 6T 830 is a 6CT 8.3.

Also, Texaco (Arteco Coolants in Europe) might tell me how much the European Cat ELC differs from TELC. In the US, at least the RA is specified to be slightly lower for Cat ELC, 5.5 vs. 6.