Seal Conditioners?

[glennc]

Originally Posted By: Frank
Auto-Rx cleans the seal material front & back (we don,t swell anything as swelling a seal weakens it)


Molakule (from one of the helpfully-linked threads) seems to contradict that statement:

Originally Posted By: Molakule
These are all seal conditioners, which work by one or more of these methods:

1. Cleaning the seal,
2. swelling the seal slightly by replacing elastomer molecules.

In 1980, Lubrizol patented a seal swell additve using "beta-thiopropionitrile" chemical which replaces the nitrile atoms lost to wear, oxidation, and sludge encroachment.

In addition, the ester di(2-ethylhexyl)-adipate (a di-ester), or similar ester equivalents, are often added to PAO and Group III base fluids, at about 5%, to improve seal swell.


My understanding is that seal conditioners and swelling agents are a necessary and benevolent part of most modern motor oils and that any oil (or probably any petrochemical) will have either a nominally shrinking or swelling effect.

 

[Cmarti]

As a newbie I point out; 1) the search function ain't all that , and 2)It is sometimes difficult to filter the info, 3)ZZ asks many of the questions I also ponder. Still a great site....

Reading here, has given me nightmares about using high mileage oil or a seal conditioner additive. The ARX folks seem convinced my seals and gaskets will crumble if I use a seal conditioner. They make a logical arguement. I just don't know if it is right.

I am worried enough I an not using HM or an additive in anything of value, but I am experimenting on 12 year old ATV that weeps from the jug base with my trusty Rotella T Syn 5w-40. It dramatically reduced with the addition of Bardhall leak stop, or the use of M1 HM 10W-40. (No wet clutch issues with seal conditioners almost 2 years in) Also, I am using M1 HM 10W-30 in a dodge 2.7, but I have no baseline to compare it with.

I will advise if I lose a seal or gasket in either. I realize, I have no qualifications to justify commentary, I can only report what I observe.

 

[Saturn_Fan]

The search function on this site isn't the greatest I have seen, that is for sure.

 

[toy4two]

the search function here is terrible actually, I just tried it and it took me 15 minutes to find a thread *I* started.

The really good new board software does a search FOR YOU as soon as you hit the "Create New Thread" button, as you type in the title of your new post underneath it starts listing all the threads that topic was covered in. Try it here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/

Now if BITOG had that feature I could understand all this hatred of repeated topics, but come on, the only thing worse than double posts of the same info is the cry babies who come out of the woodwork with "do a search". Why not just keep to yourself if that is all you have to contribute to the thread.

 

[vxcalais]

Are HM seal conditioners safe to use or not ??? If the ester seal swell will damage the seals, then is if safe to use Motul and Redline Oils ? THey are mostly ester based ? Would an oil company release an oil that all of a sudden damages ur seals ? They would be in trouble woud'nt they ???

 

[Frank]

Auto-Rx says seals will dedigrate when exposed to solvents. I think we are absoulutely right on this and so do other professionals.


From Toyota Offroad .com
Solvent is one and it only cleans out deposits left by using a poor oil. If you use a good oil you should not need to use a solvent in your engine. Think about it, there is many places in your engine that don’t drain all the oil out of. You know the small little valleys that hold the oil and doesn’t drain oil. That still has the solvent it them and will contaminate your new fresh oil. Solvent will clean out your engine but at what cost? Solvent is made to break down oils and I for one would never use a solvent in my engine because it would start to break down my new fresh oil and reduce the oils ability to properly lubricate my engine.

Auto-Rx does not swell seals we clean both sides of seal material
restore pliability and stop leak. Safely.

 

[cparksjr]

Keep in mind all aftermarket additive products, including stop leaks, are not created equal. We have worked with Lubrizol on our seal conditioner additive package over the years to make sure to not damage anyones vehicle. Because of the additive package it might take a little longer to work, but will not turn your seal to "mush" like I have seen some products do. Our product is designed to slightly soften seals that have turned hard and do a minor swell to these seals.

 

[Frank]

When you swell seals a little or a lot you weaken the fabric of the seal material itself. Auto-Rx makes seals pliable without swelling and we use Group 111 oil to restore the correct pliability for a good fit and stop the leak. We have had occasion to stop seal leaks on M1000 Web Offset Gear Boxes "on the fly' and printers know never to use any product that would swell those seals. Before 3-Rx (Auto-Rx) there only choice was to replace the seal.

 

[vxcalais]

Originally Posted By: vxcalais
Are HM seal conditioners safe to use or not ??? If the ester seal swell will damage the seals, then is if safe to use Motul and Redline Oils ? THey are mostly ester based ? Would an oil company release an oil that all of a sudden damages ur seals ? They would be in trouble woud'nt they ???


SOrry guys, what that an answer to the above ? At 200,000k's i dont wanna start using Shell or Valvoline High mileage oils and stuff my seals. Thanks.

 

[dargo]

Originally Posted By: Frank
Auto-Rx says seals will dedigrate when exposed to solvents. I think we are absoulutely right on this and so do other professionals.


From Toyota Offroad .com
Solvent is one and it only cleans out deposits left by using a poor oil. If you use a good oil you should not need to use a solvent in your engine. Think about it, there is many places in your engine that don’t drain all the oil out of. You know the small little valleys that hold the oil and doesn’t drain oil. That still has the solvent it them and will contaminate your new fresh oil. Solvent will clean out your engine but at what cost? Solvent is made to break down oils and I for one would never use a solvent in my engine because it would start to break down my new fresh oil and reduce the oils ability to properly lubricate my engine.

Auto-Rx does not swell seals we clean both sides of seal material
restore pliability and stop leak. Safely.


so now "Toyota Offroad .com" is professionals???I have found that online you post anything and people are like sheep.

 

[Frank]

Here is the authors credentials from Toyota Offroad.com Whats yours?

ToyotaOffRoad.com Note: Kevin Dinwiddie is a Certified Lubrication Specialist by the STLE (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers) Shown

 

[ZZman]

Would all the big names be making it available if it wasn't safe and tested?

 

[vxcalais]

Frank, aside form my original question, it seems you work for Auto-RX ? I am trying to get some here in Australia, but none of the emails work on the website. I wanted to know if there were any distributers here in Australia.

Thanks.

 

[Frank]

Have forwarded your request to AU Dealer

 

[Frank]

Using any chemistry to swell seals in order to stop a leak is outdated technology however very inexpensive for the manufacture to make. Quite profitable to sell.

 

[Rick20]

I find the best approach to healing seals is to first run a cleaning and rinse phase with ARX. Many times seals are just glazed with oil residue and will rebound on their own if cleaned and allowed to reconform. This would be applicable to crank and cam seals as well as valve stem seals.

If after following the ARX recommendations for seal leaks the problem still persists, then there are two possibilities. Either the seal is cracked or torn. The other possibility is the seal is worn. In any case, before taking the last resort of injecting a swelling agent into the mix, the seal and mating surface should be cleaned before. At this point at least the swelling agent is going to effect the seal evenly around the circumference.

I think that using the least invasive mode makes alot of sense in attempting to tackle seal leaks. And alway first check the the crankcase breathing apparatus on the motor is fully functional before starting.

 

[cparksjr]

Originally Posted By: Frank
Using any chemistry to swell seals in order to stop a leak is outdated technology however very inexpensive for the manufacture to make. Quite profitable to sell.

I would not say that this is outdated. Most oil companies would agree that produce a high mileage 75,000 plus type product which contain a seal swell additive package. I am not recommending that this be added to a new vehicle, but for older cars, the product sure works well. As far as better technology, we have a product designed for rear main seals which includes a polymer package. As far as being inexpensive, why don't you contact Lubrizol and see what the materials cost? I am sure you are in for a wake up call.

 

[Rick20]

Would it be safe to say that if you were to keep seals clean by running period cleaning doses of ARX or a maintenance dose regiment that the need for seal swelling down the road is eliminated to a great degree?

Also, how does a swelling or conditioning agent work when a polymer seal is glazed by oil deposits from the past?

Wouldn't it be beneficial to clean the seals before attempting to swell the seals, so that it is done harmoniously? Otherwize I would think that the swelling would take place unevenly, which might work negatively in the long haul.

As far as an additive that supplies polymer to the seals, wouldn't the same hold true, with respect to needing a cleaned up surface to work? Or is the reference to polymer addition merely a viscocity improvement to mask a leaking or weeping seal?

 

[vxcalais]

Fantastic information and posts

 

[vxcalais]

I noticed that there was a seal cleaning and swelling test done on BITOG , but it seems it was not completed, maybe by the original owner.

I honestly havent met many people who have used High mileage oils, or anyone experiencing leaks from it. BUt the info on the next is very unclear still on it is good or bad for seals. Very difficult. The marketing makes it attractive. But still unsure