2006 Toyota Tundra Mobil 1 EP 5W-30, 5,025 miles

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
780
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Hello everyone,

Two comments/questions on this UOA, which I would like to point out and obtain the collective wisdom of the readers of this group:

1) Although I am very pleased with this latest UOA, I am puzzled by the consistent downward trend in the TBN rating. In fact, I am rather surprised at how low the TBN is after only 5,025 miles. What could be causing this? Note that the truck has been operated in as consistent manner as possible across the 4 UOAs - Same driver, same brand of gas used, same type of service, etc. The truck runs great - no engine problems. I know many on this group are not Mobil 1 EP fans, but I think there's something besides the oil making this happen. To support my reasoning, I am using the same oil in my other vehicle, a V8 Lexus. I've been running up to 7500 mile UOA intervals, over periods as long as 8 months, and the TBNs on that vehicle are in the 5-6 range. I know this is a different vehicle, but some of the variables are the same - climate, drivers, brand of gas, etc. If Mobil 1 EP were that bad, I would expect the TBN retention to be poor on that vehicle, as well, but it isn't. What could be causing the poor TBN retention on the Tundra?

2) For those of you interested in filter performance, note that I now have two UOAs using the Mobil 1 filter, and two on the Amsoil EaO filter. The Mobil 1 filter seems to be doing slightly better. Currently, I have switched back to the Mobil 1 filter; we'll see what the particle count looks like on the 5th UOA - if it improves a little, then I intend to stick with the Mobil 1 filter. This is not meant to be a poke at Amsoil filters - it seems to be an excellent filter. Perhaps its performance would be better over a longer UOA period, which I will not do as the truck is still under warranty, and Toyota requires 5K oil change intervals. Comments on the filter performance?

Tundra_Engine_UOA_4.gif
 
Wow, good match.
Is that tundra a V6 or V8? That may explain the TBN issue, if one engine is "harder" on oil than the other.
 
That's a great looking UOA! Could it be fuel dilution maybe killing the TBN? I don't know enough about it to make any sort of educated guess.
 
How are the filter studies done. Is the >=2 Micron a particle count found from measuring the upstream filtrate or some other. Thanks.
 
Last edited:
To answer the questions so far:

1) This Tundra has the 4.7 liter V8.

2) The UOA was sampled via drawing a sample through the dipstick tube via a pump and plastic tubing. I recognize this is not really a good way to compare filter performance, since the sump contains oil at the end of the filter chain. Obviously, it would be better to draw a sample immediately after the oil is filtered, rather than while it is sitting in the sump, prior to filtration, but this is the best I can do with my circumstances...
 
Overk1ll - I was thinking the same thing regarding possible fuel dilution affecting TBN. Note that Percentage of Fuel Dilution is unmeasurable. Also, if increasing fuel dilution (below the measurable level of 0.5%) were causing the drop in TBN, I would expect the flash point to exhibit a similar trend, but it does not. In fact, for the first three UOAs, Flashpoint actually increases.
 
Like ChiTDI asked - which engine do you have? Also, what viscosity of M1 EP are you using?

My viscosity cheat sheet shows 5W-30 M1 EP being spec'ed at 11 cSt and the 5W-20 being spec'ed at 8.9 cSt at 110 deg C. If you're using the 5W-20 and visc is climbing to 10.5 cSt after 5k, that doesn't seem normal. But if 5W-30, no problems.

I'm puzzled about the TBN of M1 EP being 2.6 after 5K OCI. I can't recall seeing a UOA here on any oil with a TBN of less than 3 after 5k.

There is no evidence I can see of any sort of engine problem at all. No fuel, no coolant, and your wear numbers look fine.

I refuse to believe that M1 EP is a bad oil either! It just might be that this particular engine hates M1 EP. Are any of the other UOA results above on anything but M1 EP?

I look forward to answers from the pros on this one. This might be a good set of UOA's to send to Terry Dyson...

later,
b
 
I wonder how accurate the counts are and the Amsoil filter is a long life filter , the element material Amsoil uses is also used in filters for semi trucks running high mile oil changes, you are not using the filter for what it is designed for. As far as the TBN Blackstone says by their measurement the tbn is ok and is good . At 5,000 mile oil changes I wouldn't do oil analysis at each oil change, besides the wear metals are dropping so the engine is still breaking in. I have seem many uoas where the numbers drop untill 40,000 miles.
 
Interesting,thanks. Illustrates how each engine/driving situation is unique. Good news is you changed it out at the right time and the wear metals are low. I think there was a run of bad 4.7's but not sure what model year. Yours looks good.
 
This is IMO a very interesting series of UOAs. For one thing, it shows how consistent UOAs can be even with different filtration and under different weather conditions (winter/summer). We have consistent results here, with minor variations, even from a lab whose consistency is questioned at times. It seems to indicate IMO that significant differences in wear levels from one UOA to another can be used to compare one oil against another and to draw various conclusions about wear, even with a single sample.

Second, this is the second real-world particle count I've seen in which the Ea0 filter has performed less well than a fairly ordinary alternative despite all the fanfare directed at it, and in both cases the difference IMO was highly significant (like double particle counts in every size range). It only stands to reason that a filter designed for 20k+ miles would have trade-offs compared to one designed for normal intervals, whatever the advertising claims.
 
SteveS and GlennC -

I concur with your comments. I'm not ready to draw any complete conclusions regarding the filters yet. But based on the fact that the intended usage of the Amsoil filter is for long intervals, one possible explanation for the results is the Amsoil filter is designed for longer intervals, and therefore consistent performance over the period is more important than absolute filtration results over a relatively short UOA such as mine. So, in my case, you are right - I am not using the filter for its intended service. Also, there are certainly flaws in this testing method, but I cannot easily overcome them. I tried to hold as many variables as I could constant - but obviously, I cannot control the weather conditions. But I can control the type of oil used, the number of miles on the interval, brand of gas used, type of service, etc., which I have done.

It will be interesting to see what the results will be on the current UOA now that I have moved back to the Mobil 1 filter. If it improves slightly, similar to the first two UOA results, I would think this would be a good indication that the Mobil 1 filter is probably better suited for the type of service I am using it in.

I'm still puzzled by the TBN, though!
 
TBN's on a lot of synthetic oil 'level off' at seemingly low levels, but stay there for a long time. If you had run this oil to 10-12k miles, you probably would have had a similar TBN. Don't know why this happens, but have heard knowledgable posters on here say this occurs. Changing M1 EP at 5K miles is a complete waste - run it to at least 10K - you won't 'lose' your TBN...
 
Originally Posted By: addyguy
TBN's on a lot of synthetic oil 'level off' at seemingly low levels, but stay there for a long time. If you had run this oil to 10-12k miles, you probably would have had a similar TBN. Don't know why this happens, but have heard knowledgable posters on here say this occurs. Changing M1 EP at 5K miles is a complete waste - run it to at least 10K - you won't 'lose' your TBN...
I was going to add the about 5,000 mile oil changes as it is the wrong application for the intended use of the oil.
 
Nice report....silicon seems a bit high for the mileage. About the same as what I usually find with my UOAs and I always get comments about it here and with Blackstone, but that's at 12K OCIs too. I'm using the K&N drop-in filter. Which filter are you using?

If you don't plan on any longer OCIs and still plan on using synthetics, why use the M1 EP version? Isn't there a cost savings near $10 with the regular M1? Seems like there was when I was using it. Just my 2 cents.
 
Their are no bad 4.7L ta old make the press like Catholic Prist caught up to no good!!!

I onohave an answere for yo ether though.I oo was woundering if teir was intermeitent fuel issue just becas it reads low at the time sample does not mean it was w dureing the entire OCI!Thoe low flash points make me suspect this. I am also woundering aboutthenumber of hours thi trcks runs no somuch the milage. Dos hfamily member that operates this vechile leave it idleing for long periods? I t parked by a commercail plant of some kind? What is the brand of fuel is it a discount fuel plce or Top Tier or what???? The sulfar conentof the fuel can easily efet wear and TBN.

As to the filter not useing the Amsoil oil filter for long duratons is not going to effctit's performance! IT either performs better then the M1 filter or it does not i ha nothing to do with how long oukeep the filter on! THe synthetic media in th M1 filter has always been a good media ju more expensive then I think a Toyota needs.

Try somhin completly dffrent try M1 0W40 and lets see whatths engines does to that! It as completely different make up then the M1EP line chemicaly or try Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40 wich we know hsinsane TBN retesion ability. DO not ev consider PP since i hssome TBN retension issuesall of it's own and we would not know if it waas the PP or the engine again tearig it up!
 
No doubt that the M1 filter kicked the oil out of the Amsoil filter for 5-6 bucks less.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Their are no bad 4.7L ta old make the press like Catholic Prist caught up to no good!!!

I onohave an answere for yo ether though.I oo was woundering if teir was intermeitent fuel issue just becas it reads low at the time sample does not mean it was w dureing the entire OCI!Thoe low flash points make me suspect this. I am also woundering aboutthenumber of hours thi trcks runs no somuch the milage. Dos hfamily member that operates this vechile leave it idleing for long periods? I t parked by a commercail plant of some kind? What is the brand of fuel is it a discount fuel plce or Top Tier or what???? The sulfar conentof the fuel can easily efet wear and TBN.

As to the filter not useing the Amsoil oil filter for long duratons is not going to effctit's performance! IT either performs better then the M1 filter or it does not i ha nothing to do with how long oukeep the filter on! THe synthetic media in th M1 filter has always been a good media ju more expensive then I think a Toyota needs.

Try somhin completly dffrent try M1 0W40 and lets see whatths engines does to that! It as completely different make up then the M1EP line chemicaly or try Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40 wich we know hsinsane TBN retesion ability. DO not ev consider PP since i hssome TBN retension issuesall of it's own and we would not know if it waas the PP or the engine again tearig it up!


John, hopefully you wont take offense to this as I always look forward to reading your posts, but do you proof read any of your post before you submit them? Seriously?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top