Group V ester versus Group IV PAO - head to head

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Wow, the following author uses powerful analogies to promote the advantages of Group V esters to Group IV PAOs.

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QUOTE:

For most of the USA, there are mainly two types of synthetic oils (or as we like to say, synthetics are designer oils).

The most common is a PAO, short for poly-alpha-olefine, or easier to understand, it is synthesized petroleum oil. It is refined in a special process, or in simple words "synthesized". It still starts out by being pumped out of the ground. PAO’s are better than regular petroleum oil for handling heat, oxidation, low temperature startups and higher film strength. Drawback: PAO and petroleum are dynamic types of oil, you have to build up oil pressure and have rotation before a film is produced. Better said, you have to hydroplane the engine parts like you hydroplane a car in the rain, to create a film (or in the case of water-skiing, you have to build speed for the skier to get up and plane on the water). PAO’s are not very expensive because they are made from crude oil and produced in large quantities. You can usually tell when PAO’s are the main ingredient used as the cost of the 100% synthetic oil is less than $7.00 per quart.

The other main type of synthetics are synthetic esters, (diester, polyolesters, polyesters and complex esters). Motul® uses esters in its products. Esters are mostly made of vegetables, minerals, and animal fatty acids. Motul’s® esters contain a lot of coconut derivatives. Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients all have to be collected from natural resources and synthesized (a very expensive process) in smaller quantities. Esters have all the advantages of a PAO but more of them. Esters can handle heat better than PAO’s and when burned, esters leave far less coking deposits. Esters are static types of oils and are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond. This means no more metal to metal start ups. This also means that a film is there before the oil pressure light goes out preventing premature wear of high-stressed parts like cam lobes. The film created is up to 5 times stronger then petroleum oil.

The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet. It is attracted to metal and sticks. The PAO molecules are neutral and act like a piece of plastic placed on the fridge. They just fall off. [Heh, another nice analogy by the author.] All commercial jet plane flying, use an ester synthetic of some type and not a PAO. You need to run an ester of some sort for maximum protection.


There are some companies calling level 3 petroleum base stocks synthetic. This oil is a good Petro oil. But it is not what we call a synthetic. The end result is that some oils are labeled incorrectly and are very inexpensive.

Let’s explain why handling higher running temps is important. With petroleum oils there is a much better risk of failure from volatility problems than with synthetics. Why?

Have you ever burned butter while cooking? Yes, everybody has burned butter! The running temp or maximum temp is low. When butter reaches its maximum running temp it starts to evaporate (volatility) then it carbonizes and then it sticks to the metal pan. Now compare butter to vegetable oil in which you deep fry french fries. The only way to heat vegetable oil so hot as to make it carbonize, you would almost need a direct flame.

Petroleum oil is like butter as far as handling heat! Synthetics are like vegetable oil - synthetics won’t burn up and stick to your engine parts or go out the breather as fast as petroleum oils will. Remember esthers leave almost no deposits if they do burn this is the second reason to run a synthetic oil. Because you’re not supposed to have extreme heat problems everyday.

LINK:
http://www.scooterhelp.com/genmaintain/crankcase.oil.html
 
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Since RLI's oil is a Group V ester, reading the above author's comments is pushing me towards trying Renewable Lube's Bio-Syn oil next, before trying Amsoil's Group IV PAO.

Dr. Haas made a very convincing argument a couple days ago, too.
 
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Originally Posted By: Built_Well
The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet.


Marketing hype. Ester oils come in every flavor from very polar to neutral polarity to negative bond.
 
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Originally Posted By: Dale_Knight
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
The number one reason to run an ester synthetic oil is bond. The electro-chemical bond is made because the ester molecule is polar. Sort of like a refrigerator magnet.


Marketing hype. Ester oils come in every flavor from very polar to neutral polarity to negative bond.



I remember Mobil marketing Mobil 1 as "bonding to the metal" back in the early 90's.........
 
Marketing piece. Big time. I hope the author is not claiming that he wrote that...it's from a Motul ad as I recall. Buster will know. If he claims he wrote it.....oh here it is:

Quote:
Steve Lambert of First Kick scooters gave me the following information which was produced by Motul to educate people about their products


If you can't spell polyalphaolefin then I'm not going to pay really close attention. It's filled with 1/2 truths and the usual angles to favor one product over the other. They all do it.
 
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Since RLI's oil is a Group V ester, reading the above author's comments is pushing me towards trying Renewable Lube's Bio-Syn oil next, before trying Amsoil's Group IV PAO.

Dr. Haas made a very convincing argument a couple days ago, too.


Who told you that? RLI is a blend of bio-oils and PAO. Amsoil oils are PAO and esters. Nothing wrong with either approach. #1 rule of BITOG - be very careful what you read on the web about oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Since RLI's oil is a Group V ester, reading the above author's comments is pushing me towards trying Renewable Lube's Bio-Syn oil next, before trying Amsoil's Group IV PAO.

Dr. Haas made a very convincing argument a couple days ago, too.


Who told you that? RLI is a blend of bio-oils and PAO. Amsoil oils are PAO and esters. Nothing wrong with either approach. #1 rule of BITOG - be very careful what you read on the web about oils.


The irony there is that what you quoted there actually proved the point you were making Pablo!

Mobil and Amsoil have been around a long, LONG time, and creating synthetic oils for a long, LONG time. I'm a bit leery (I'm sure it shows) about newcomers to the oil game claiming this that and the other thing about their oils or how they have "magical" ingredients and then use a variety of "tests" to illustrate the superiority of their product.....

And then their propaganda is spread via the magic of the Internet! And most people don't stop to think about the validity of the information they are presented, nor the credibility of the source......
 
Pablo is right about this posting: mostly hype and half-truth, carefully composed (with typos and more) to favour towards certain kind of products.

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Q.
 
Yep sounds like hype to me, wanna know what really sticks to metal? Bardahl's no smoke, it's also very heat resistant but I wouldn't use it in my car. Sure I could put 0W-20 and add Bardahls to make it almost like 5W-30 but it wouldn't help all that much anyway.
 
You all make good points.

I guess, like I mentioned yesterday, I don't have a favorite. I'm definitely going to try both RLI Bio-Syn and Amsoil. I just haven't determined yet which I'm going to try first, after the Pennzoil Platinum drain.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Mobil and Amsoil have been around a long, LONG time, and creating synthetic oils for a long, LONG time. I'm a bit leery (I'm sure it shows) about newcomers to the oil game claiming this that and the other thing about their oils...


In all fairness to Renewable Lube, their web site ( http://www.RenewableLube.com ) says they've been around since 1993, about 15 years. Amsoil hasn't been around that much longer, about 35 years. I think both companies are probably trustworthy.

Quoting some of Renewable Lube's (a.k.a. RLI's) material:

"The following are some of the organizations and companies who are using RLI’s Bio-Engine Oils successfully:

USDA – Beltsville

U.S. Coast Guard

Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore

Sleepy Hollow State Park

Point Reyes National Seashore

Wells State Park

Cape Cod National Seashore

Atkinson Contractors

Mark Thomas Racing

Volunteer Chevy

NOAA and the Great Lakes Region

Portage Area Regional Transit Authority (PARTA)

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I can't wait to try both oils
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I do not think it is that far from the mark it is just crude and over simplified. Group V ester based stocks are better then group IV and III at almost everything. The problem is cost an most people are not willing to pay what a company would have to charge to keep their profit margin where they like it with G-V oils as the primary or sole base stock. So most larger comapnies use the lesser base stocks for the most part ad add just enough of the IV and V to get the perfromance properties they want. The customers are not in the know and just go by what is on the lablel! Synthetic is Syntetic in most peoples eye's! Now the real question though is how much performance do I really need and at what cost? Sure I would love to run nothing but G-V base stock based oil but do I need them?No! My Toyota Camry does not need G-V base stock oil to be happy and live a long life! Second do I want to pay a premium for G-V based oils for a 6 month oil change inteval?No! So barring sales and such what am I willing to spend on oil? $6 a quart is my upper limit self imposed by me. So know I have to find a synthetic oil that has a decent blend of G-III,IV and IV base stocks that will give me the performance I want for the price point.

Seeing how dino oil with a decent additive package will all but elimanate wear in my engine why am I useing synthetic? To cut down on engine deposits and to provide excellent cold starting performance dureing winter!So how much G-IV and V does it take to make G-III based synthetic clean and pump nicely? Once we answere that question we can start looking at price point!

Seriously if an engine will last 300,000 miles and still be in great mechanical condition with cheap store brand dino oils and 3000 mile oil change interval at what price point are you wasteing your money? I do not know! I have not done the math in so many years that I do not have a good answere. To add insult to injury oil bottlers ar enot required to list what percentage of what base stock is used in the product! I think they should required to list this as it is a key factor in determining what you should pay for their product!
 
35 years is more than twice as long!!!!! How can you say that it's "not much longer" when it's more than DOUBLE??? LOL!!!
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AMSOIL has a very decorated racing history, as does Mobil 1. Actually, I'm pretty sure Mobil's history is THE most decorated, given the massive number of racing bodies running their product..... It's widespread OEM use....etc.

Everybody and their grandmother knows AMSOIL. Whether they've run the product or not, they recognize the name. I bet you 90% of the people I will run into tomorrow would recognize the AMSOIL name and not the Renewable Lube name.

15 years is pretty recent compared to the age of most of the oil companies. AMSOIL has been doing the synthetic thing exclusively since 1972, which makes it a young company compared to EM (1911) but as I said, they have been doing Synthetics for 19 years longer than RLI!!!(founded in 1991) That's a long time.

Not faulting their product at all, it just isn't "proven" in my eyes yet, because of the lack of widespread adoption........
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
15 years is pretty recent compared to the age of most of the oil companies.


True, but Amsoil was once 15 years old, too :)
 
Originally Posted By: Built_Well
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
15 years is pretty recent compared to the age of most of the oil companies.


True, but Amsoil was once 15 years old, too :)


Yes, but they were basically the only synthetic company other than EM at that point in time :D Those two were basically defining the industry so to speak
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Now that the path has been cut and synthetics are somewhat popular, everybody and their grandmother seems to be making them....... LOL!
 
Quote:
"The following are some of the organizations and companies who are using RLI’s Bio-Engine Oils successfully:

USDA – Beltsville

U.S. Coast Guard

Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore

Sleepy Hollow State Park

Point Reyes National Seashore

Wells State Park

Cape Cod National Seashore

Atkinson Contractors

Mark Thomas Racing

Volunteer Chevy

NOAA and the Great Lakes Region

Portage Area Regional Transit Authority (PARTA)



Most of these look like RLI was chosen from a list of bio-augmented lubrication companies that was distributed by the GSA (or other agency).

Suggested memo: In concert with most of our other public financed shakedowns in the ag sector, it's suggested that when purchasing lubrication products that preference be given to domestic producers that use bio based elements in their formulations. The percentage is not all that important. It's merely to suggest that there is a renewable and "green" aspect to our purchasing process. Below is a list of known producers that meet this criteria.

Not at all a slam against RLI ..just the way the list reads for me.
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Now, all this time that I've been here at BITOG, I thought that Group V Esters were boutique oil created in a lab and Group IV PAO was a lab created true synthetic as well(not pumped out of the ground). And that Group III was the pumped out of the ground synthesized, hydro-cracked or iso-dewaxed oil that the API allowd the oil companies to call a synthetic due the the process that changes their chain molicules.

This article says nothing about Group III synthetic but, states about PAO oil what I always thought about Group III. Have I been wrong all of this time or is the article incorrect?
 
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Now, all this time that I've been here at BITOG, I thought that Group V Esters were boutique oil created in a lab and Group IV PAO was a lab created true synthetic as well(not pumped out of the ground). And that Group III was the pumped out of the ground synthesized, hydro-cracked or iso-dewaxed oil that the API allowd the oil companies to call a synthetic due the the process that changes their chain molicules.

This article says nothing about Group III synthetic but, states about PAO oil what I always thought about Group III. Have I been wrong all of this time or is the article incorrect?


The article purposely blurs or skews the lines.

" Esters are mostly made of..... minerals............"

"Remember esther........." Do I ever!

Esters can be made from oil or anything organic. PAO's can be made from oil or anything organic. First you'll need to break the molecules down to the basic building blocks and build them back up. Even currently, sad to say petroleum is the lowest cost starting point. This is not what Group III oils are. They are just highly refined changed liquid petroleum molecules.

API didn't allow anything. Better check your source on that one.
 
Oversimplified market b/s. period. Motul acts as if the others don't use esters. Ridiculous. Motul also doesn't tell you how only their 300V series is mostly ester based and for track use. Their other oils are pao/grp III/V blends. There is no BEST base oil. Your best oils use multiple base oils in differen ratios to achieve certain performance goals.
 
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